I don't really get this... Devil?

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:52

acid this kinda explains it better

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_determinism#Free_will_and_determinism

but I'm sure there's a proper book/written philosophical argument written somewhere as it's incredibly difficult to explain i na way that doesn't sound like gibberish or insane amounts of technical speak (which admittedly even I wouldn't understand)

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:55

AcidHell2 said:
No it means you have some control over which path ways you use and are able to control something. As we have very limited knowledge we can;t say at the moment.

But say you are hungry, part of your brain you have little or no control over says your hungry, at this point there has been no choice of what you are going to eat. You then have a hole load of ideas and thoughts on what you want to eat and you pick and option.

What I'm trying to say is those "ideas and thoughts" are caused by lots of transmitters binding and releasing other transmitters. (again horrible simplification)

based on your current complete make up and structure this will cause a chain reaction which can only conclude in one one physical state which will be your "choice" at the end.

insted of there being several end states and at some point something happens which makes the reaction chain change and essentially makes 2+2 =5 and a different end result.

(a binds to c and releases D, in you say you have so much C you get 12 D where as i would only get 6, and in this simplification 12 = ham sandwich and 6 = crisps)

jmc007 · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:58

How is faith quantified?

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:00

Tefal said:
based on your current complete make up and structure this will cause a chain reaction which can only conclude in one one physical state which will be your "choice" at the end.

It doesn't though there are lots of ideas and opinions and you eventually chose one option.

Like when you are hungry how can you predetermine on cooking something new which you haven't even heard of, before browsing the web.

Just as by thinking of the options and mulling it over you can add even more options into the mix of your inner voice., or remove stuff from the mix, or do a total U turn and decide on something else.

bloodiedathame · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:01

jmc007 said:
How is faith quantified?

Number of visits to places of worship.

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:04

jmc007 said:
How is faith quantified?

what do you mean, faith is a state of mind or acceptance. Only the person them self can truly know if they believe it or if they are faking it.

Castiel · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:04

Tefal said:
but the Jews don't believe the Christian trinity to be their god, the christan part is an addition that to them is false so if the Christian one is right they're wrong.

same for the Muslims.

There are a fair few Christians that don't believe in the Trinity either. That really doesn't mean to much however, the discussion is on the Devil and Hell, and in thses thing the three religions are of a similar mind.

Tefal said:
each book supersedes the previous one.

So they are inextricably linked then.

Tefal said:
Except Christians believe that god is also Jesus the others do not, that is a fairly fundamental difference in the god.

Except that even the Christians can't agree on that either. Christians believe Christ was the Son of God, not necessarily that he was God. Trinitarianism is simply one interpretation of Biblical scripture (a widely held one).

However it has little to do with the relative etymology of the Devil/Hell/Purgatory etc that the OP was referring to.

In fact the commonly help conception of Hell is a mixture of many different religious sources which have been concocted together by both modern and medieval fiction media. So any discussion on the subject really needs to take in all the sources of that to be truly representative.

Tefal said:
it's pretty much a certainty though the op is talking about the Christian devil.

Even if that is True, the Christian Devil is the same as the Islamic one and the same as the Judaic one.

Tefal said:
From the threads premise, it's going to be the coe/catholic interpretation.

Which interpretation, as the Catholic one is far different for the CofE one, and other Protestant Churches have different interpretations as well...

How specific do you wish to be?

Tefal said:
please tell me how Wicca answers

Well, Wicca is a mixture of different beliefs and practices, some polytheistic, some Monotheistic, some duotheistic, some even atheist, so you would need to be more specific.

Given the more widespread ideology of dualism, I suspect that they would see the Devil in a dualism way. A dark side balancing the Light, as they have no specific Devil entity, they believe that their Godhead is both Light and Dark, and it depends on the ritual the individual ascribes to as to which they tap into.

As for Heaven and Hell, they reject that kind of specificity and believe in reincarnation instead.

Let us not forget that Wicca is a very modern religion that takes pagan beliefs from numerous sources and had attempted (not always successfully) to incorporate them into a neopagan religion.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:07

AcidHell2 said:
It doesn't though there are lots of ideas and opinions and you eventually chose one option.

there are lots of ideas but the reaction can only end one way, and each idea is simply the current stage it will keep going untill it reaches the fianl lin kin the chain.

In a jar of hydrogen and oxygen introduce an ignition source than it will form water, that's the only way it can go, it can't say form O3. (I bet this is where my time away from chemistry gets tested an someone shows it does >.<)

Like when you are hungry how can you predetermine on cooking something new which you haven't even heard of before browsing the web.

right your brain's state would be say

a: i'm hungry

it then moves on to

b:i would like a bacon sandwich

Now here with free will you decide no i will try something new. (how did your brains state change? did somthing make it change?)

where as i;d say

With how your brain is now that thought triggers other reactions and the only conclusion they can possibly come to is

"No, I will try something new"

then you go off to the internet and again everything you see hear smell touch and remember (even what you've already eaten that day) will have affected everything and will again leave the reaction only one conclusion which would be your choice of recipe.

like i said it;s really hard to explain succinctly, and i'm bad at it you mghit be best reading the wiki and if i can find something a better speakers words

gotta play squash will be back near to 5 ish

Castiel · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:08

Von Smallhausen said:
I asked due to the two sigs you use with angelic themes. Archangel Michael ?

No, it is simply that when choosing a username, my wife suggested Castiel due to my interest in theology and the fact that the character in "Supernatural" reminds her of me (Not sure quite how, implacability and I look like the actor a bit she says)

The angel in my sig is Gabriel from the film "Legion", my previous one was Michael from the same film.

The quote is from "Kingdom of Heaven", which is purely coincidence on my part.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:10

Castiel;18489251 Even if that is True said:
but the specific events aren't the same.

It's like trying to use the titanic to explain why John McClane wasn't wearing shoes in die hard.

Well, Wicca is a mixture of different beliefs and practices, some polytheistic, some Monotheistic, some duotheistic so you would need to be more specific.

Given the more widespread ideology of dualism, I suspect that they would see the Devil in a dualism way. A dark side balancing the Light, as they have no specific Devil entity, they believe that their Godhead is both Light and Dark, and it depends on the ritual the individual ascribes to as to which they tap into.

As for Heaven and Hell, they reject that kind of specificity and believe in reincarnation instead.

Let us not forget that Wicca is a very modern religion that takes pagan beliefs from numerous sources and had attempted (not always successfully) to incorporate them into a neopagan religion.

Click to expand...

very nice but doesn't answer

But then why all that teasing in the desert?

Click to expand...

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:10

Tefal said:
a: i'm hungry

it then moves on to

b:i would like a bacon sandwich

Now here with free will you decide no i will try something new. (how did your brains state change? did somthing make it change?)

where as i;d say

With how your brain is now that thought triggers other reactions and the only conclusion they can possibly come to is

"No, I will try something new"

then you go off to the internet and again everything you see hear smell touch and remember (even what you've already eaten that day) will have affected everything and will again leave the reaction only one conclusion which would be your choice of recipe.

C

Both scenarios are identical, you are your brain and a choice has been made. How that mechanism works is up for debate as we simply don't know how the brain functions as a whole.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:15

AcidHell2 said:
Both scenarios are identical, you are your brain and a choice has been made. How that mechanism works is up for debate as we simply don't know how the brain functions as a whole.

they;re not though.

For there to be a choice something must change the reaction from it's path onto a new one.

something must make A react with B differently than it otherwise normally would, if nothing is changed there there is only one possible out come and no choice.

I'm kinda saying there is no "you" you're simply a by product. (a necessary part but you are determined by it instead of it determined by you)

oh an as i edited late

like i said it;s really hard to explain succinctly, and i'm bad at it you mghit be best reading the wiki and if i can find something a better speakers words

gotta play squash will be back near to 5 ish

Dj_Jestar · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:16

Tefal, are you claiming that "fate" and "destiny" are real? Did I just choose to write this post, or have I forever been destined to write it?

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:16

think of it like a river with lots of dams and flood gates. the water is always flowing and is predetermined by your previous choices, experiences, education etc. However you can still decide to open up a flood gate to change the rivers flow.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:20

AcidHell2 said:
think of it like a river with lots of dams and flood gates. the water is always flowing and is predetermined by your previous choices, experiences, education etc. However you can still decide to open up a flood gate to change the rivers flow.

ah yes that's a good one.

right in my idea "you" are the river you flow down hill the flood gates are all the other things in the world, and all the parts of your brain, they are already set (and can change based on outside events and also some trigger which are activated by the water as it rises behind a dam to a certain level, that would be the "feedback parts")

In yours how do you chose to open a gate?

How does the river leave it's channel and open a gate, it defies the physics of the situation.

Castiel · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:21

Tefal said:
but the specific events aren't the same.

It's like trying to use the titanic to explain why John McClane wasn't wearing shoes in die hard.

No it is not, it is completely different.

The specific events are simply reinterpretations of the same basic belief structure.

So it is like comparing Planet of the Apes starring Charlton Heston, with Planet of the Apes with Mark Wahlberg. A perfectly acceptable thing to do.

Besides the OP title states......."I don't really get this....the Devil?"

Well to understand the devil then we need to trace the concepts etymology and that includes all religions that share a common belief in some form of adversary, including all the Abrahamic faiths.

You simply don't like it because it disabuses you of your original post stating the the first commandment would confer most of us to Hell. Well that commandment is in all the Abrahamic religions, thus it is incumbent on us to consider their God as the same one, (besides the fact that each religion states it as such anyway)

Tefal said:
very nice but doesn't answer

I am not sure what is mean "by teasing in the desert" specifically?

Either way Wicca is not a Abrahamic religion, or one that ascribes to the concepts we are discussing, which is why I did not include it originally. Much like I did not include Shinto either.

Anyway let the Wiccans speak for themselves:

http://www.wicca-spirituality.com/wicca-beliefs-jesus.html

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:24

Tefal said:
How does the river leave it's channel and open a gate, it defies the physics of the situation.

it doesn't because we don't know how the brain works, when we find out we can answer the question once and for all, about free will.
trouble is you have your opinion and I have mine, until science develops further neither is right. But the way I experience myself and the "conversations" in my head and the way you can alter choices and flitter between stuff I would say it's a choice.

A feed back loop where you could either restrict a rivers path way directing it to other rivers (synapsis) or some way you can actually alter the gates themselfs.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:24

Also side point, with this I do believe i have free will and make choices but i also know that's wrong and i don't.

It's a ****ed up theory and incredibly hard to explain.

because it requires you to think in reverse, ie not I think therefore i am, I am therefore i think. (well actually I am therefore I am forced to think a certain thing)

Also requires you to basically say "you" as a independent being don't exist and you're simply a cog in a machine.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:27

AcidHell2 said:
it doesn't because we don't know how the brain works, when we find out we can answer the question once and for all, about free will.

but we know (roughly) how basic chemistry and physics works.

Your brain would require some hidden component that lets it alter the way chemicals react via some non physical manipulation for it to fit.

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 15:30

Tefal said:
but we know (roughly) how basic chemistry and physics works.
.

None of that removes a mechanism to reavulate the ideas that are picked from the initial starting point. There's will be lots of "hidden" stuff in the brain, because we simply can;t model it or grasp the huge number of interconections and complexity.

and this is where parallel thinking is the mechanism. In otherwords it has the ability to generate lots of ideas simulatinusley and then argue pros and cons with itself.

There is something fundamentally different with higher thought, where there is more than one possible outcome. The animal part of the brain is different and that is certainly only one outcome, same with reactions.