I don't really get this... Devil?

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:27

Tefal said:
For you to genuinely choose that you must have the idea to raise your hand before your brain is i nthe state that says "i think i will raise my hand" which means "you" require some higher/spiritual part of you to decide that and then put your brain i n that state (so also need power to move and manipulate matter).

You are your brain, the chemicals, the synapses the electrical charge. There is no separation, you are one and the same.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:29

AcidHell2 said:
You are your brain, the chemicals, the synapses the electrical charge. There is no separation, you are one and the same.

that's my whole point.

There can be no choice then as your actions and thoughts are decided by the physical state of your brain which you (being the brain) have no control over only chemistry and physics does.

To have a choice you and your brain must be separate there must be a higher non physical component ie a soul.

Parsifal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:29

Ceryndrion said:
The way that I always understood it,

Satan, as he was, was originally tasked with judging humanity fit to stand before god.

What's your source on that? It's interesting.

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:30

Tefal said:
that's my whole point.

There can be no choice then as your actions and thoughts are decided by the physical state of your brain which you (being the brain) have no control over only chemistry and physics does.
.

Not at all, you have a choice because you are your brain, because you have control over at least part of your brain. It doesn't have to be separate and just because it's not separate it doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

jmc007 · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:31

Tefal leave the religeous threads to someone who has a true and real grasp on the subject.

Ceryndrion · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:33

Parsifal said:
What's your source on that? It's interesting.

It comes from the Book of Job, simplified somewhat as I don't read hebrew, but ask anyone of the Jewish faith and they'd probably be able to explain it better.. I'm sure one will come along at some point..

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:37

Castiel said:
Well in fact the OP doesn't specify which religion he is referring to, he just states the "Devil" and "religion is ridiculous"

The Bible accepts that the Judaic God is the same monotheistic God as theirs and Islam also assumes the same. The etymology of Man from Adam/Abraham etc is the same in all three religions. They are inextricably linked by belief in the same God.

but the Jews don't believe the Christian trinity to be their god, the christan part is an addition that to them is false so if the Christian one is right they're wrong.

same for the Muslims.

each book supersedes the previous one.

While their doctrines are different, what they believe to be true within the confines of that doctrine are different, they all hold the consensus that the God they worship is the same.

Except Christians believe that god is also Jesus the others do not, that is a fairly fundamental difference in the god.

There is perfectly legitimate reasons for including all the Abrahamic faiths in this debate, also given that the etymology of Heaven/Hell/Angels/Demons/Devils and so on is largely based on the original Sumerian and folklore beliefs and the concept is found across a whole range of religions, such as Zoroastrianism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, you are being a little harsh in declaring that only the specific Christian interpretation is relevant.

it's pretty much a certainty though the op is talking about the Christian devil.

If we are to limit ourselves to a Christian interpretation, which one?

and not all Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God either, before you start down that road.

From the threads premise, it's going to be the coe/catholic interpretation.

But fine introduce any other religion you like.

please tell me how Wicca answers

Why does the Devil punish people who are evil?

Surely he'd embrace them and form an alliance to take over the universe?

Or is he partners with God - he hands out the punishments while God helps the good guys..

But then why all that teasing in the desert?

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:39

AcidHell2 said:
Not at all, you have a choice because you are your brain, because you have control over at least part of your brain. It doesn't have to be separate and just because it's not separate it doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

you don't though your thoughts come from the make up of the brain so they are already decided when your brain moves to that state you cannot force it to change.

For the horribly over simplified metaphor from before your the ball held up then dropped you're going to fall you cannot choose not to fall just as you cannot willingly choose to think something other than what you are thinking at the time.

I'm sure there's a name for this theory and it'll have been described much better by someone else.

jmc007 · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:40

The story of Job is that the Devil said people only do good and love God because He protects them. The Devil asked God to give him control of all areas of one of these "Gods" people.
The person God allowed the Devil to test called Job.
The Devil was allowed to destroy Jobs family, wealth and health though still did not curse God and yet said the now famous words.
"The Lord giveth and taketh away."

Castiel · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:40

Von Smallhausen said:
Watch Constantine OP.

What is your take on it Castiel ? I note your two sigs with interest or is that just a random thing ?

In short I think that the God, Satan, Angels, War in Heaven analogies found in various religions are based on some sort of original belief and followed mankind out of Africa and has been added to and changed over the millennia to become the differing interpretations of the same thing.

People have speculated for decades that it may be a racial memory of a civilisation long gone who to the indigenous tribes would have seemed like gods, or there is the Alien element some ascribe to.

I think that we need to include primitive beliefs that all religions share, such as Flood Myths and Heavenly Wars etc....

When I get a bit of time I may put together a synopsis of the different belief and the similarities therein.

But overall I suspect that the Devil/Satan/Lucifer/Shaitan/Belial/Kolski/Ahriman/Mephistopheles/Beelzebub and so on incarnations are all based on a singular Indo-European belief in duality of spirit.

bloodiedathame · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:41

Tefal said:
your the ball held up then dropped you're going to fall

Unless your in space.

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:41

Tefal said:
you don't though your thoughts come from the make up of the brain so they are already decided when your brain moves to that state you cannot force it to change.

That's rubbish because we can and do makes choices and change them all the time. The only way I can explain it is that your brain runs in parallel, one part expresses something and a few other parts question it, another part then decides what to follow. This is all you and a choice has been made.

Von Smallhausen · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:43

I asked due to the two sigs you use with angelic themes. Archangel Michael ?

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:45

jmc007 said:
The story of Job is that the Devil said people only do good and love God because He protects them. The Devil asked God to give him control of all areas of one of these "Gods" people.
The person God allowed the Devil to test called Job.
The Devil was allowed to destroy Jobs family, wealth and health though still did not curse God and yet said the now famous words.
"The Lord giveth and taketh away."

what pleasant chap god is eh, really showed his love there.

imagine that a different way

The story of Jeff is that Dave (from the pub) said jacobs children only do good and love Jacob (jeffs father)because He protects them. The Dave asked Jacob to give him control of all areas of one of these children.
The son Jacob allowed Dave to test was called jeff.
Dave he was allowed to murder jeffs family, steal all his stuff and and inject him with a mixture of HIV gonorrhoea and genital warts though still did not curse Jacob and yet said the now famous words.
"Jacob giveth and taketh away."

I think if you read that happening in the paper you'd be appalled and call for both Dave and Jacob to be put in prison.

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:46

Tefal said:
what pleasant chap god is eh, really showed his love there.
.

Just use the old testament for that. With all his killing,

jmc007 · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:47

Tefal just because the Jews don't believe in Jesus now, does not defunct all the Torah.
You do know the Jewish book the Torah and the Christian Old Testament are the same scriptures?

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:47

AcidHell2 said:
That's rubbish because we can and do makes choices and change them all the time. The only way I can explain it is that your brain runs in parallel, one part expresses something and a few other parts question it, another part then decides what to follow. This is all you and a choice has been made.

But then that means your choice affects how neurotransmitters bind to their receptors and what those receptors then trigger.

How?

How can your choice change how 2 chemicals react?

jmc007 · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:48

Double post.

Tefal · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:49

jmc007 said:
Tefal just because the Jews don't believe in Jesus now, does not defunct all the Torah.
You do know the Jewish book the Torah and the Christian Old Testament are the same scriptures?

yes i know that but it means the Jews aren't Christian and don't believe the devil tested Jesus in the dessert and as such cannot really answer the op on why the devil tested Jesus in the dessert as Jesus was not the son of god if you're Jewish.

Glaucus · 17 Feb 2011 at 14:52

Tefal said:
But then that means your choice affects how neurotransmitters bind to their receptors and what those receptors then trigger.

How?

How can your choice change how 2 chemicals react?

No it means you have some control over which path ways you use and are able to control something. As we have very limited knowledge we can;t say at the moment.

But say you are hungry, part of your brain you have little or no control over says your hungry, at this point there has been no choice of what you are going to eat. You then have a hole load of ideas and thoughts on what you want to eat and you pick and option.

There most certainly is a choice involved, though some sort of feedback loop in computer talk. You are able to analyse what the brain thinks and make a new choice based on that. but seeing as you are your brain it is all you and you have ultimate choice on most things, other than all the automatic reactions.