Oh goody, another religious thread.
I'll be over there ->
You're actually over <- there!
I don't really get this... Devil?
- Thread starter Snooble
- Start date
You're actually over <- there!
No I don't.
I do not believe in god, I cannot force myself to truly believe in god, i can act as if i do and pretend but i cannot force myself to believe something, I doubt anyone can.
As such i'm screwed and doomed to burn as i don't have faith and don't believe.
If I'm shown though some miracle with a full note saying it is the Christian god etc i still will not believe i will know, i will not have faith i will have knowledge.
Right now acid are you telling me you can make yourself genuinely believe in god at will?
It's simply the illusion of choice, through predisposition and though events that happen in their lives some will believe and some will not they don't choose to.
According to Islam:
Satan also known as Iblis, was a Jinn (beings created from fire) not an Angel (beings created from light). Yet he was so pious and devoted that he resided amongst the Angels. Jinns also have free will or the ability to choose, unlike Angels which only do as they are commanded.
When God created our father Adam PBUH, he commanded all the Angels to bow down before him, and they all bowed except Satan. He refused to bow out of pride, since he believed he was better then Adam and for this act of disobedience he was cast out of heaven. He asked God to delay his punishment until the day when man will be raised up once more, and it was granted. He promised God he would lead most of mankind astray.
Quran 7.10:
And We have given you (mankind) power in the earth, and appointed for you therein livelihoods. Little give ye thanks!
And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration.
He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of clay.
He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded.
He said: Reprieve me till the day when they are raised (from the dead).
He said: Lo! thou art of those reprieved.
He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path.
Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them grateful.
He said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you.
So, from the time of the creation of Adam PBUH until the Day of Judgement, Satan has vowed to lead mankind astray. Adam PBUH sinned out of temptation (when he ate from the tree) and he was forgiven, Satan sinned out of pride and he was cursed.
Actually the devil (T-1000) is not in hell (vat of moltern metal), he currently roams the Earth and will be cast into Hell by Jesus (sarah conner) on (in)Judgement Day
you are your beliefs, you and your mind are one. You and your beliefs are one. As such that is a choice we have made. You are trying to say you are separate from your beliefs this is rubbish. it is one and the same thing, as such you have a choice.
No I can't force myself to belive, because I don't.
Who is to say that the Christian God would then judge them?
All the Abrahamic Faiths worship the same God anyway, so that accounts for the vast majority of people.
Even if we look at the largest of the non-Abrahamic faiths, Hinduism, they still have a overall monotheist God figure in Vishnu (although Hinduism is so complex it is difficult to know what Hindu's believe, most of the time they don't know themselves.)
Who is to say that Vishnu is not the same God as the Abrahamic one and so on.
I don't ever remember choosing to not believe in god.
I just don't.
My brain's current configuration does not believe there is no choice it is a fact of physics and chemistry not free will.
So you have no choice, as of now you cannot make a choice.
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fine then the magic faery down the road actually wrote the bible and all gods are the same and are in fact papa smurf.
kinda deviated from the original line of thread about the Christian god and devil but if you're going with that fine.
So you don't have a choice then. You are a slave to your body chemistry and physical world around you. You are predestined by your biological make-up.
Is that what you are saying?
Frankly I don't really see the need to resort to insult Tefal.
Even if you limit the discussion to the Christian God (which by definition is the same as the Judaic one and the Islamic one) he still represents the majority of people in the world.
Personally it is a nonsense that the commandments apply to anyone but the Israelites and their descendents anyway, but that is for another thread.
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Not predestined (there is elements of random chance, or at least current models say they are random) but yeah no free will, you're an incredibly complicated (in terms of feedback) clock work machine with a slight random elemnt.
You do not choose to do anything as that would require some sort of supernatural power where your thoughts occur before the chemical changes in your brain make those thoughts happen.
You made a choice?
when?
You did 100% belvied in god and then consciously stopped believing?
How do we still have a choice?
If we have already chosen (when?) and we both agree you cannot force yourself top belvie then as of now you have no choice you cannot choose.
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because in a thread based on the Christian version of the god and devil, you ahve to assume both to exist and the bible to be true other wise the answer is simply "there is no devil /thread"
to then go on and start adding in new gods contrary to the bible, and start saying that maby they're al lone makes no sense and is just moving goal posts and has as much legitimacy as introducing random other elements.
Certainly wouldn't include the Islamic god as that would be a false god as it denies the "fact"in Jesus being gods son (and technically god), as does Judaism.
They are distinct and all dammit what's the word, if one is true the other is false, minds gone blank on that :/
not exclusive but there something similar.
thesaurus time.
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Thought are your brain, there's no sepration. We still have a choice. You can't force yourself as a belief is not a yes or no question. It is something which is part of you. We have made are choices. When ever that was. Further information or life experiances can and do change people. You still have the choice.
I'm not really sure where you are going with this.
I make a choice to do lots of things that are not specifically determined by my biological make-up. Do biological and physical events influence those decisions I suspect they do, however the "random" element you speak of, is "Free Will", is it not?
no the random element would be the random things that happen in quantum mechanics and if that affects how the chemicals in your brain interact. (like i say atm it's considered random but in time it maybe predictable)
Your thoughts and ideas are determined by the chemical and electrical (and physical structure) state of your brain.
What i mean is say "you" choose to raise your hand.
For you to genuinely choose that you must have the idea to raise your hand before your brain is i nthe state that says "i think i will raise my hand" which means "you" require some higher/spiritual part of you to decide that and then put your brain i n that state (so also need power to move and manipulate matter).
Other wise, everything in your brain (and body and surroundings) before hand has made it so the only way those chemicals can move is into the arangement that = "i think i will raise my hand" there is no "choice" it is the only way they can possibly go.
Just like a ball held aloft and let go has no choice over whether it falls it's simply a fact of it's physical position.
Soldato
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The way that I always understood it,
Satan, as he was, was originally tasked with judging humanity fit to stand before god. Which I believe comes from the hebrew texts, it was islam and christianity that too the hebrew name, meaning 'opposite' and translated it into a manner that suited them.
Rather than judging our faith and our eligability to stand in the presence of god, he became the fallen, the one who stood against god, the one who was against the establishment, the one who didn't do as he was told.
Doctrine, hasn't got a clue..
I keep being told that I will go to hell, so when I get there, I'll report back.. k?
Satan, as he was, was originally tasked with judging humanity fit to stand before god. Which I believe comes from the hebrew texts, it was islam and christianity that too the hebrew name, meaning 'opposite' and translated it into a manner that suited them.
Rather than judging our faith and our eligability to stand in the presence of god, he became the fallen, the one who stood against god, the one who was against the establishment, the one who didn't do as he was told.
Doctrine, hasn't got a clue..
I keep being told that I will go to hell, so when I get there, I'll report back.. k?
Man of Honour
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Watch Constantine OP.
What is your take on it Castiel ? I note your two sigs with interest or is that just a random thing ?
What is your take on it Castiel ? I note your two sigs with interest or is that just a random thing ?
Well in fact the OP doesn't specify which religion he is referring to, he just states the "Devil" and "religion is ridiculous"
The Bible accepts that the Judaic God is the same monotheistic God as theirs and Islam also assumes the same. The etymology of Man from Adam/Abraham etc is the same in all three religions. They are inextricably linked by belief in the same God.
While their doctrines are different, what they believe to be true within the confines of that doctrine are different, they all hold the consensus that the God they worship is the same.
There is perfectly legitimate reasons for including all the Abrahamic faiths in this debate, also given that the etymology of Heaven/Hell/Angels/Demons/Devils and so on is largely based on the original Sumerian and folklore beliefs and the concept is found across a whole range of religions, such as Zoroastrianism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, you are being a little harsh in declaring that only the specific Christian interpretation is relevant.
If we are to limit ourselves to a Christian interpretation, which one?
and not all Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God either, before you start down that road.