If you were Merc negotiating Hamilton's next contract

[deuse]

Daimler made a profit, you said they made a loss...

They make layoff's to prevent future losses as well...its not rocket science.



Your post doesn't contain a single well structured counter point as to why specifically Hamilton shouldn't be paid what he is paid, and you blindly ignore the fact of all the other drivers pay. You also ignore the input the driver and historically all top drivers have on the team and car development away from the track and you ignore the marketing value / sponsorship value they bring as well.

Sure Mercedes COULD pay a driver £5m to drive the car, but how much return would they get for that £5m, maybe £10m, £15m??? Where as Hamilton along could get them £500m exposure or more.

Clueless hater thinking, without consideration for the full picture.

From Daimler July 2020
"A week ago, Daimler announced a loss of €1.68 billion for the second quarter of 2020. Analysts had expected an even higher loss."

"Nevertheless, Daimler boss Ola Källenius said, “But there is still a lot to do. ... We must continue our systematic efforts to further lower the company’s break-even point through cost reduction and capacity adjustments.”

At this news the share price went up.

As I've said.
No one in sports is worth that much...ever. In my opinion.
And Brawn is going to bring something on the3 same lines.

 

[deuse]

Yes, he did. But did Bottas ever give way to Hamilton when he was A) Still in the WDC race B) Not being woefully slow and jeopardising a team victory or 1-2.

You act like Hamilton always asks to get past him when you know that isn't true.

Can I ask - Why do you have Hamilton as your signature when you've shown time and time again you can't stand the man?

Doesn't matter.

It's a sure fire way to grind a person down and lose all hope.
And it worked.

And the one time Hamilton was told to let by another driver.
He said no. That's what bottas should have done.

 

[Stumble Bum]

Daimler made a profit, you said they made a loss...

They make layoff's to prevent future losses as well...its not rocket science.



Your post doesn't contain a single well structured counter point as to why specifically Hamilton shouldn't be paid what he is paid, and you blindly ignore the fact of all the other drivers pay. You also ignore the input the driver and historically all top drivers have on the team and car development away from the track and you ignore the marketing value / sponsorship value they bring as well.

Sure Mercedes COULD pay a driver £5m to drive the car, but how much return would they get for that £5m, maybe £10m, £15m??? Where as Hamilton along could get them £500m exposure or more.

Clueless hater thinking, without consideration for the full picture.

Oh dear, the only one hating here is you. If you wish to dismiss all the points I've made without justification then fine, I'm not going to repeat myself. I and many others have made it clear why £40mil is excessive and not necessary. I'm sorry people have dared to speak out against your beloved Lewis and dared to have a contrasting opinion.

 

[Junglist]

Doesn't matter.

It's a sure fire way to grind a person down and lose all hope.
And it worked.

And the one time Hamilton was told to let by another driver.
He said no. That's what bottas should have done.

Then Bottas needs to work on his form. He starts the season well then fades out like a fart before it's even got to the midpoint of the season. Who's fault is that? Do you think it's Mercedes job to hold Bottas' hand to make sure he keeps a consistent level all year? They wouldn't move him out of the way if he would be able to keep himself in with a mathematical chance of winning.

What race are you thinking of? The only race I can think of where Hamilton objected moving was Hungary 2014 from memory. He started from the pitlane and worked his way to be ahead of Nico and they were fighting for position. He got ahead of Nico and when asked to move across, assuming I'm remembering this all correctly, he said something along the lines of "If Nico is quicker than me he can be quicker and overtake, I'm not slowing down for Nico" and I'm sure by that point of the race they were actually racing for position so it was a bit of a dick move from Mercedes.

Only other race I can think of, again this is all from memory, where he objected to the team orders was probably the Abu Dhabi 16 race where he was driving as slow as possible to get Vettel to overtake Rosberg so that he could win the WDC - again that is fully expected. They were racing for the WDC and the WCC was all but sewn up.

I could well be forgetting races where he refused to let his teammate past and I'm sure you'll say which events they are.

But it seems you conveniently want to forget when he asked to switch positions with Bottas and that if he couldn't get the overtakes done he'd give the position back and that is exactly what he did whilst he was in a close fight for the WDC with Vettel.

If it was that clear cut, the deal would have been done months ago, and Hamilton wouldn't be technically unemployed.

My guess is that it's over things like getting to keep trophies/cars, getting Mercedes involved with his Extreme E project, less PR work or if he only wants a 2 year contract and mercedes want a 3 or 2+1.

 

[Syla5]

Oh dear, the only one hating here is you. If you wish to dismiss all the points I've made without justification then fine, I'm not going to repeat myself. I and many others have made it clear why £40mil is excessive and not necessary. I'm sorry people have dared to speak out against your beloved Lewis and dared to have a contrasting opinion.

Theres clearly no hate in any of my responses with regards to drivers and why they deserve the pay they do. Ive clearly explained how they bring value to a team that you blankly ignore.

The only point you have made is "Mercedes are in a position to pay anyone they want £10m to drive their car"

Sure they can, of course they are in that position, but you have failed to counter point at all the points raised about the benefits of better drivers and their feedback, car development input, and ability to lead and steer the team in the direction that helps stay at the front.

Merc haven't lucked in to the position they are in and they haven't stayed their by chopping and changing drivers and the focus they bring.

Some drivers are clearly better at getting a team to work with them, so again why do you think Merc hold all the cards?

They could have gotten Alonso in cheap, why do you think they didn't?
They could have snapped up Vettel, why do you think they didn't?
They could have taken Russell, why do you think they didn't?

Why do you think they haven't replaced Bottas in that second car?

You really are undermining the value that certain drivers bring without looking at the full picture.

 

[Syla5]

From Daimler July 2020
"A week ago, Daimler announced a loss of €1.68 billion for the second quarter of 2020. Analysts had expected an even higher loss."

"Nevertheless, Daimler boss Ola Källenius said, “But there is still a lot to do. ... We must continue our systematic efforts to further lower the company’s break-even point through cost reduction and capacity adjustments.”

At this news the share price went up.

As I've said.
No one in sports is worth that much...ever. In my opinion.
And Brawn is going to bring something on the3 same lines.

So lets take this one step at a time:

2019

Daimler AG reported net income of around 2.7 billion euros (or about three billion U.S. dollars) in 2019, a drop of almost five billion euros year-on-year. Daimler's earnings were hit by expenses related to recalls of diesel engine-equipped cars and vans.

Then we have this for 2020

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/daimler-sees-profits-mercedes-rising-2020

"FRANKFURT -- Daimler said it expected the full-year operating profit of its Mercedes-Benz cars and vans division to be above the prior-year level but warned that the coronavirus pandemic will push the group to an operating loss in the second quarter."

As i clearly said in my response, reasons for making big redundancies are to reduce future loss, to which you have provided a perfect quote for me, supporting that.

Daimler havent made losses since 2009.

 

[Syla5]

Philip Morris were picking up the tab for Senna wages. With a customer engine they didn't have package to beat Williams, so Senna was their best bet for success. Worked out quite well.

What do you think sponsorship money goes towards now??

You know that Honda paid Alonso's wages at Mclaren when they came back to F1 right? As well as pumping extra money in to Mclaren on top of that as well.

 

[deuse]

snip.

I never knew this was a Bottas thread...oh that's right...it's not.

 

[deuse]

snip.

This is to easy.
You haven't read your links as you would have noticed that it was from April before the 1,6bn loss ...jesus H

 

[deuse]

Can we go back on topic.

 

[Stumble Bum]

Theres clearly no hate in any of my responses with regards to drivers and why they deserve the pay they do. Ive clearly explained how they bring value to a team that you blankly ignore.

The only point you have made is "Mercedes are in a position to pay anyone they want £10m to drive their car"

Sure they can, of course they are in that position, but you have failed to counter point at all the points raised about the benefits of better drivers and their feedback, car development input, and ability to lead and steer the team in the direction that helps stay at the front.

Umm, do you not think all the other drivers can also do this. Hamilton isn't some special being with abilities others don't have. It is you who is overlooking the other drivers on the grid.

Merc haven't lucked in to the position they are in and they haven't stayed their by chopping and changing drivers and the focus they bring.

If they did chop and change drivers it wouldn't make a difference. Again there are some incredible drivers on the grid. Max & Charles especially.

Some drivers are clearly better at getting a team to work with them, so again why do you think Merc hold all the cards?

Again, not sure why you think Hamilton is so special in this regard. Again you undervalue other driver's input.

They could have gotten Alonso in cheap, why do you think they didn't?
They could have snapped up Vettel, why do you think they didn't?
They could have taken Russell, why do you think they didn't?

As previously stated they could have anyone they want to drive for them for a fraction of the cost. This is what we are discussing. I think we all know the reason why Bottas has kept his seat for so long. Got to keep Lewis happy. Can't have another Rosberg taking more titles off of him. We know Lewis can't get on with other competitive team mates. (Rosberg / Button / Alonso) Hamilton is a problem in that instance.

Why do you think they haven't replaced Bottas in that second car?

They should replace Bottas, but that's a different discussion.

You really are undermining the value that certain drivers bring without looking at the full picture.

Pot kettle, black.

 

[Junglist]

I never knew this was a Bottas thread...oh that's right...it's not.

You brought him up.

At the end of the day Mercedes and Hamilton are building a dynasty together that will keep both of their names at the top of the sporting history books for quite some time.

They both compliment one another and I don't see either of them walking away from the other any time soon

 

[deuse]

You brought him up.

At the end of the day Mercedes and Hamilton are building a dynasty together that will keep both of their names at the top of the sporting history books for quite some time.

They both compliment one another and I don't see either of them walking away from the other any time soon

I 100% disagree.

Back on topic before EVH wakes up

 

[Syla5]

Umm, do you not think all the other drivers can also do this. Hamilton isn't some special being with abilities others don't have. It is you who is overlooking the other drivers on the grid.

Nope, ive clearly pointed out that other drivers ALREADY get paid well in excess of £10m per year, guarantee they wouldn't all be willing to drop significant amounts of wage just to drive the merc.

If they did chop and change drivers it wouldn't make a difference. Again there are some incredible drivers on the grid. Max & Charles especially.

Its clearly had impact at other teams quite often, so theres support for this actually making a difference many times.

Again, not sure why you think Hamilton is so special in this regard. Again you undervalue other driver's input.

For the same reason Verstappen is special to redbull, LeClerc (and previously Vettel) to Ferrari, Ricciardo to Redbull, then to Renault, then to McLaren. Clearly these teams see value in the drivers that you clearly do not.

As previously stated they could have anyone they want to drive for them for a fraction of the cost. This is what we are discussing. I think we all know the reason why Bottas has kept his seat for so long. Got to keep Lewis happy. Can't have another Rosberg taking more titles off of him. We know Lewis can't get on with other competitive team mates. (Rosberg / Button / Alonso) Hamilton is a problem in that instance.

Again you seem willing to ignore the destabilisation that was caused behind the scenes by having both those drivers. I am sure had it been the other way around and Hamilton had retired, that Rosberg would still be at Merc and they would be paying him the mega bucks, and they would be keeping a Bottas esque second driver around.

He got on fine with Button so not sure how that comment adds and value to you.

With regards to Alonso again its a lot deeper then Hamilton being the issue, when it was clearly RD that cause the issue by setting up a false position for Alonso of clear number 1 status while bringing along his McLaren tailored wonder boy that rocked the boat. Alonso choose to leave, rather then rally the team around him, he kicked off, and wanted out, one of many very poor career decisions that Alonso made over the years, of which there are many more examples of Alonso causing inter team unrest then Hamilton.

If Mercedes could pay what they want why do you think that they are choosing not to? They clearly have reasons for wanting to keep Hamilton and reward him financially what they seem reasonable with. Something that you seem to ignore over and over again. Do you really think Hamilton demands the wage and merc are bent over a desk and have to pay it??? Not at all, its mutially agreed on clearly on the merits of the relationship. They CHOOSE to pay that.

So again i put it to you @Stumble Bum Why havent Merc gone with any driver they want at £10m??? or ever whatever salary they want? Why??? You cant explain this because you have no clue, aside from the fact you think drivers only drive the cars, and you clearly dislike Hamilton.

They should replace Bottas, but that's a different discussion.

The only thing you've said that I agree with, except they have clear reasons to keep Bottas, covered above.

 

[Junglist]

OK what do you disagree with?

If you have the key people such as Toto Wolf and James' Allison both saying the sort of information a driver with the experience Hamilton has is beneficial to the team and how they develop the car (Check Toto and Lewis' interview with Brundle or listen to Allison's BTG podcast for evidence) how does Russell compare to that?

Russell has a very bright future ahead of him and I can't wait until he gets his chance in a front running team as I think he's going to be the Brit to back for the new generation but right now he doesn't have the experience that Lewis offers the team.

It's the same in any job in the world. Why is someone out of college/University often command a lesser wage than someone who has been in the industry for decades longer? Experience. It can't be bought nor borrowed. You have to earn that. The very same lack of experience that caused George to crash in the pitlane and same experience that caused Lewis to tell his team he wont come in due to having flash backs of China 07 I expect.


George has speed right now - that's it. You'd have to be a short sighted idiot to think that the decision is based on one race alone. But that's why you and I aren't getting paid the megabucks because we know bugger all.

 

[Syla5]

The crazy thing is, in any other job you would expect experience to count for something and more and better experience to be responded to with better remuneration, but when it comes to Hamilton that just gets thrown out the window of course.

 

[MagicBoy]

What do you think sponsorship money goes towards now??

You know that Honda paid Alonso's wages at Mclaren when they came back to F1 right? As well as pumping extra money in to Mclaren on top of that as well.

Enough with the whataboutism.

You can't compare 30 years ago to now. In the old days Philip Morris were happy to dump near unlimited amounts of tobacco money into the sport. Go read up on John Hogan who sadly died last week. Now it's mostly fluffy bull**** about partnerships and brand synergies with opaque financials at the backend. Rich Energy excluded. Ineos included.

 

[Junglist]

The crazy thing is, in any other job you would expect experience to count for something and more and better experience to be responded to with better remuneration, but when it comes to Hamilton that just gets thrown out the window of course.

Right? Experience is one of the most valuable assets as it can't be bought, you can only get it from being in the action.

George has shown lack of experience and lets say he was in the seat for 2019 Mercedes could've had a slower car as he wouldn't have had the experience to push them in the right direction.

I think the bean counters at Mercedes know how much value he brings to the team

 

[Syla5]

Enough with the whataboutism.

You can't compare 30 years ago to now. In the old days Philip Morris were happy to dump near unlimited amounts of tobacco money into the sport. Go read up on John Hogan who sadly died last week. Now it's mostly fluffy bull**** about partnerships and brand synergies with opaque financials at the backend. Rich Energy excluded. Ineos included.

The money behind the "fluffy ********" is no different now to what it was. Honda ploughed £100m per year in to Mclaren when they returned.

As for the "unlimited amounts" that tobacco companies ploughed in to F1 teams, its way less then the team budgets of today even when you factor in inflation.

 

[Stumble Bum]

Nope, ive clearly pointed out that other drivers ALREADY get paid well in excess of £10m per year, guarantee they wouldn't all be willing to drop significant amounts of wage just to drive the merc.

umm, yes we are all aware other drivers may be paid well and more than £10 mil. You are failing to understand the viewpoint that Mercedes are that dominant that top drivers would have course take a pay cut to be in a title winning Mercedes. Saying otherwise does not make it true. How does this even need explaining to you?

Its clearly had impact at other teams quite often, so theres support for this actually making a difference many times.

You are just guessing. Put Max in the Merc next season and he wins the world title. Don't even try and say he wouldn't. It's utter nonsense.

For the same reason Verstappen is special to redbull, LeClerc (and previously Vettel) to Ferrari, Ricciardo to Redbull, then to Renault, then to McLaren. Clearly these teams see value in the drivers that you clearly do not.

Ferrari / Red Bull etc of course will pay quite well, they are not winning world titles for many many many years now. This is not really what the point of the thread is. It's not relevant what other teams are doing. Mercedes are so dominant they can reduce salaries for drivers if they want. Again, it's not a difficult concept to grasp given the position they are in.

Again you seem willing to ignore the destabilisation that was caused behind the scenes by having both those drivers. I am sure had it been the other way around and Hamilton had retired, that Rosberg would still be at Merc and they would be paying him the mega bucks, and they would be keeping a Bottas esque second driver around.

He got on fine with Button so not sure how that comment adds and value to you.

With regards to Alonso again its a lot deeper then Hamilton being the issue, when it was clearly RD that cause the issue by setting up a false position for Alonso of clear number 1 status while bringing along his McLaren tailored wonder boy that rocked the boat. Alonso choose to leave, rather then rally the team around him, he kicked off, and wanted out, one of many very poor career decisions that Alonso made over the years, of which there are many more examples of Alonso causing inter team unrest then Hamilton.

Going a bit off topic now, not sure this adds any value to the fact that Mercedes don't need to pay £40mil. No-one else pays this much?

If Mercedes could pay what they want why do you think that they are choosing not to? They clearly have reasons for wanting to keep Hamilton and reward him financially what they seem reasonable with. Something that you seem to ignore over and over again. Do you really think Hamilton demands the wage and merc are bent over a desk and have to pay it??? Not at all, its mutially agreed on clearly on the merits of the relationship. They CHOOSE to pay that.

So again i put it to you Stumble Bum Why havent Merc gone with any driver they want at £10m??? or ever whatever salary they want? Why??? You cant explain this because you have no clue, aside from the fact you think drivers only drive the cars, and you clearly dislike Hamilton.

Isn't this what we are discussing? Many people think Merc should reduce Hamilton's salary, it's the whole point of the thread. This is what we are suggesting. If your beloved Hamilton was really worth it, and Mercedes were doing what you expect them to. How come there still has been no contract signed? Hamilton is out of contract as we speak. Sounds strange if he's sooooo valuable. So which is it, Mercedes cutting costs or Hamilton being greedy? Because something doesn't add up that his contract has expired. Very unusual given the situation, no?