In Which we discuss the next folding at home competition

[Joe42]

Have we decided what we're doing about gpus yet? Are we just saying no gpus?

I think the hit to the team production of anything we consider doing should be ignored, as i think this competition will more than make up for it with new members.

How long will it be? iirc the last one was 2 weeks, same this time? I think so.

 

[Joe42]

So its not really possible then, unless we used benchmarking wu's or something.

Is there any way of setting up the client but preventing it from fetching a wu?

Its just i can see it being a real pain to get everyone to set up their clients at a set time. If anyone runs into problems they'll loose out. Of course you could just start counting points at a set time but you couldn't use eoc stats then. We would have to make something else equally good for people to monitor stats.
Maybe this could be done in future with an eoc like stats page on team ocuk.

 

[Joe42]

-configonly

Doh.

Of course. So we just have to have everybody run it at a specific time... still not ideal. You could use task scheduler though couldn't you. Best if we tell people to do that.

Although as it would be 2 weeks long there's not much to loose by being a few hours late. At least getting everyone to put it in task scheduler they wouldn't all have to remember to start it.

 

[Joe42]

Some very interesting and thoughtful suggestions SS.

How come the 805d gets the highest points/watt?
I thought they were lousy when it comes to efficiency.

 

[Joe42]

Shoud we be counting the gpu in the wattage figures if we aren't counting it in the value (price) figures?
I assume the price figures are only for the cpu...?

 

[Joe42]

Sorry, i don't mean to pull your figures apart, i know its only an example.

I was just surprised to see the power eating hotplate 805d winning in an efficiency test.

However, imagine doing this for every person who joins the competition... i can see it getting out of hand. Its a great idea, but is it practical?

 

[Joe42]

How would one measure the pc power with a multimeter?

And using the main electricity meter is going to be difficult because you have to watch out for things like fridges starting up, heating and heaters coming on and off and whatnot.


I still can't decide which competition method i like best. I'm finding it a bit overwhelming the amount of good suggestions we have. I need to have a good long think.

 

[Joe42]

You would first measure the mains voltage in parallel with the load. This could just mean sticking the leads into the socket. You'd then splice into the power cable to measure the current in series with the load while the computer is switched on. You'd multiply the two numbers together to get the power because P = I*V.

Not exactly trouble free then.
I don't fancy sticking a metre into anything mains powered and i don't fancy splicing any cables. I would be happy to buy a little power meter though and do some measurements.

If SS wants some power figures he should make his way over to some of the review sites which measure system power consumption of everything they test. Here for example.

 

[Joe42]

Ok, i think i've got three problems with this.

1. Is the overclockers league going to be fair bearing in mind clock speed isn't a measure of performance?
We could make up our own pr numbers, as per my guide in the sticky. Basically a core2duo at a given speed will require an X2 thats 400mhz faster to be the same speed. But that's still not accurate. Tbh its about time someone came up with a way to accurately measure cpu performance. I suppose there are synthetic benchmarks we could use... superpi?

2. Can we actually measure power consumption of every system entered, or can we get an accurate figure? Should we just use TDP? Is tdp accurate enough bearing in mind Intel and AMD measure it differently?
[Solved]

3. Can we get accurate 2nd hand prices for every cpu entered? How?


Asuming we can do solve those 3 problems, i propose we combine the two ideas.

Two leagues, Intel and AMD.

Categories are:
Most points
Most points from a dual core cpu
Most points from a single core cpu
Most points in the AMD league
Most points in the Intel league

Best ppd/w tdp (prize)
Best ppd/£ cpu value (prize)
Most extra points achieved through overclocking. (prize)

Random raffle prize

 

[Joe42]

Did that and here's my results

Nice work. We can consider the cpu wattage problem solved then. Might need a few more figures for xeons and such.

What about the other two problems?

 

[Joe42]

Cheaky *** took me a good while to find thoses

Not my fault some people have to use wierd uncommon cpus.
Maybe i'll enter an old ibm cpu i have just to annoy you.


Edit: Is it just my brain turning to jelly trying to work out equivalent ghz ratings and then overclocked equivalent ghz ratings...?

A core 2 E6600 = 8.8eqghz (equivalent ghz, or p4 ghz if you like, which has kind of become a performance measurement)

Following through my guide (which is horribly complicated, dubiously accurate, and needs to be revised).
If that was clocked up to 3ghz, add 400 = 3.4ghz. A 4000+ is 2.4.
4200 2.6
4400 2.8
4600 3.0
4800 3.2
5000 3.4
5000 x2 = 10,000 = 10eqghz

So an e6600 overclocked to 3ghz is 10eqghz. i.e its equivalent to two p4s at 5ghz.

So it does eventually spit out a somewhat believable number this guide. I just need to revise the method of getting there. Not that you need to work out the eqghz for its overclocked speed, i've just noticed. Will leave that there as an example. And a 2nd eqghz figure to work with.



Lets assume it does 500ppd when overclocked, 500/8.8eqghz = 56.8

Now lets assume we have a core 2 duo with a stock speed of 3ghz, and its overclocked above that.
Lets assume it does 700ppd when overclocked, 700/10eqghz = 70

So the 2nd cpu would win in the most extra points achieved through overclocking category. Whatever that proves.

Raise your hand if you think i've gone completely and utterly mad...? *surveys forest of raised hands*

 

[Joe42]

Well, lets keep this moving or we'll end up having a competition for who can devise a decent competition.

I think the power usage problem is solved, and the overclocking problem is solved. We can use ghz if eqghz is too much of a pain, and i'll probably revise the guide to calculating eqghz to make it easier, more like adding a simple number to the ghz for each processor to get an equivalent ghz rating.

So what about the ppd/£value... can we collect value figures for every cpu?
Should we just take the current selling price instead, which makes it much easier to get pricing info?

 

[Joe42]

Also, have any people had thoughts on some of the other issues raised in an earlier post up there - re whos officially going to be running the competition and whether prizes are allowed.

SiriusB

We're running it, and prizes are allowed. There's no rule against it and its not trading in any way. Things have been given away before with no problems.

I agree, this is getting rather complicated. But SS has found some cpu wattage numbers and we're going to ignore the rest of the system so i think he has that one covered. We can definitely do a best ppd/w category.
Although i've just had a thought, what about overclocked cpus? Thats going to be a serious pita to find numbers for.

 

[Joe42]

Oh, and just to throw a nice big spanner in the works, I'll be using OEM kit (i.e. Apple). I have no idea what the TDP is and it isn't overclockable.

Better to throw it in now while we have a whole heap of spanners to deal with than later on when said spanners have been removed.

Its going over my head too tbh, but we'll give SS a chance and keep working on ways of implementing his ideas. They are all great ideas, just suffering from a number of annoying impracticalities.

 

[Joe42]

Yeah i don't think there's any hurry for it, people will be too busy over Christmas. After Christmas when everyone has finished their upgrades is the best time.

 

[Joe42]

Yes you're probably right.

Well i say give SS a chance to come and rescue some of his ideas which have had holes picked in them, he seems to have lots of good ideas and solutions.


I don't know if you've already found a solution to this or what, but how are we going to deal with overclocked cpus in the ppd/w league? Because we don't have any figures for overclocked cpus...

 

[Joe42]

I've got a headache now

Its tricky stuff this competition planning.

 

[Joe42]

It'll have to be made very simple indeed. Nothing like a long wordy post to send people to the back button.

 

[Joe42]

Well, original plan was to post in gh, but could also post in cpus, oc&c, gd. Have to ask a don about it.

Remember this isn't the first competition and it won't be the last. If we have to save some ideas for future competitions then so be it.

I think we said no gpus didn't we? Could easily have a gpu only competition later posted in the graphics forum. Or have we thought of a way to still allow gpus

 

[Joe42]

why dont we ask...

oh wait...

Yeah, that's just what i was thinking.