• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

Intel 8 Core i7 7820X Unlocked CPU/Processor

your forgetting somthing massive

x299 chipset has 24 Pci-E + the CPU
AM4 chipset has 8 pci-e + the CPU
It's confusing but I'm sure that isn't right. As I understand it, if we're talking about PCIe 3.0, AM4 Ryzen CPUs have:
  • 16x for GPU(s)
  • 4x for NVMe
  • 4x for chipset (configurable by the motherboard manufacturer, usually split between PCIe 2.0 slots and SATA)
  • ?x for USB 3.1 (not sure if these count as PCIe lanes or not)
By contrast, the i7-7820X has 28 PCIe lanes, plus the DMI 3.0 x4 link (which is basically 4 PCIe lanes since both PCIe 3.0 and DMI 3.0 run at 8 Gb/s per lane). So that makes it 24 lanes for Ryzen including the link to the chipset and 32 for i7-7820X, right? :confused:

A chipset can have a billion PCIe lanes but if they're only connected to the CPU via PCIe 3.0 x4 it's not going to do much good.
 
you also have 4 from the chipset, x299 has 24!

Certainly does, not only can you read that if you find the proper info but I can tell you first hand I've got an 1800x with an on the board M2 and another M2 on a PCI slot... Both running in x4, Next to 2 x 1080s running in 8x. 4+4+8+8.
 
Even if we take 1800X vs 7820X which is a stupid comparison unless you don't overclock.

1700 - £285
7800X - £360
1800X - £425
7820X - £570

7900X - £930

Then you have the gulf in motherboard prices.

Perf/£ isn't even close although the 7820X will generally clock higher than the 1800X and hence give it an absolute performance edge.
 
Last edited:
Even if we take 1800X vs 7820X which is a stupid comparison unless you don't overclock.

1700 - £285
7800X - £360
1800X - £425
7820X - £570

7900X - £930

Then you have the gulf in motherboard prices.

Perf/£ isn't even close although the 7820X will generally clock higher than the 1800X and hence give it an absolute performance edge.


You are 100% right there muon. But i suspect that at some point AMD will have a very close look at that "absolute performance edge" and do something about it.
At this moment in time they know they have most things covered..................but they do need to generate income. I have no doubt whatsoever they will address this sooner rather than later.
 
The only thing holding Ryzen back at the moment is the fab process and the hard wall limit of ~4GHz. As soon as they can move on to a new fab and hopefully net ~4.0GHz base/4.5GHz boost the Intel IPC advantage gap will decrease considerably.
 
The only thing holding Ryzen back at the moment is the fab process and the hard wall limit of ~4GHz. As soon as they can move on to a new fab and hopefully net ~4.0GHz base/4.5GHz boost the Intel IPC advantage gap will decrease considerably.

Intel aren't "that far" off moving to 10nm and their 10nm is basically the same spec as GF's 7nm - GF has a slight advantage to fin pitch and a couple of other areas but nothing that is going to make that much difference and it looks like Intel's process will still have the frequency advantage. GF doesn't seem to be a great option for performance parts really better suited to low voltage operation. AMD would have to move production to Samsung really I think if they wanted to push the MHz race.
 
AMD would have to move production to Samsung really I think if they wanted to push the MHz race.

Me thinks they would already be looking into that for latter this year or early next year. They need to be looking at all sorts at the moment and not making rapid decisions.
 
It's confusing but I'm sure that isn't right. As I understand it, if we're talking about PCIe 3.0, AM4 Ryzen CPUs have:
  • 16x for GPU(s)
  • 4x for NVMe
  • 4x for chipset (configurable by the motherboard manufacturer, usually split between PCIe 2.0 slots and SATA)
  • ?x for USB 3.1 (not sure if these count as PCIe lanes or not)
By contrast, the i7-7820X has 28 PCIe lanes, plus the DMI 3.0 x4 link (which is basically 4 PCIe lanes since both PCIe 3.0 and DMI 3.0 run at 8 Gb/s per lane). So that makes it 24 lanes for Ryzen including the link to the chipset and 32 for i7-7820X, right? :confused:

A chipset can have a billion PCIe lanes but if they're only connected to the CPU via PCIe 3.0 x4 it's not going to do much good.

your pretty much their, it really depends on how many I/O they add, i you would have to believe that x299 has PCI-E doubler.

AMD
  • 16x for GPU(s)
  • 4x for NVMe
  • 4x for chipset (configurable by the motherboard manufacturer, usually split between PCIe 2.0 slots and SATA)
  • do not think so
Intel
  • 16/28/44 For the CPU
  • up to 10 USB
  • DMI 3.0 X4 Link (take it for what you will.)
  • i guess it depends if your going to use all the expansions all the time??...
 
The only thing holding Ryzen back at the moment is the fab process and the hard wall limit of ~4GHz. As soon as they can move on to a new fab and hopefully net ~4.0GHz base/4.5GHz boost the Intel IPC advantage gap will decrease considerably.
BTW, Intel doesn't have an IPC advantage. They have a clock advantage and an optimised software advantage. But in terms of Instructions per clock, Ryzen is theoretically better if programmed for.
 
BTW, Intel doesn't have an IPC advantage. They have a clock advantage and an optimised software advantage. But in terms of Instructions per clock, Ryzen is theoretically better if programmed for.

From what i've read and my own testing, clock for clock Ryzen is pretty much the same as Broadwell. Sky/Kabylake have slightly better IPC than Ryzen.

Me thinks they would already be looking into that for latter this year or early next year. They need to be looking at all sorts at the moment and not making rapid decisions.

I think it's pretty much guarenteed that Zen+ will be on GF new 7nm process as @Rroff states. So they should be well underway tweaking Zen in preparation.
 
From what i've read and my own testing, clock for clock Ryzen is pretty much the same as Broadwell. Sky/Kabylake have slightly better IPC than Ryzen.
I posted it on the forums but can't remember where. All i remember is that @humbug bookmarked it. I linked a blog where some guy had looked in depth at how instructions are processed. From memory ryzen has a theoretical IPC of 6, while kaby lake is 4. There was certain operation that ryzen is better at, and certain ones that kabylake is better at.

That why I mentioned that software is optimised for intel CPUs. If the software was optimised for Ryzen, you would see that Ryzen score higher at identical clocks.

If i find the link I'l post it
 
Here's the link http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=838#838
Worth reading all of it
There has been discussions of whether the Ryzen would be able to run four instructions per clock cycle or six, because the documents published by AMD were unclear at this point. Well, my testing shows that it was not four, and not six, but five. As long as the code is running from the micro-operations cache, it can execute five instructions per clock, where Intel has only four
 
I think when people talk about IPC they mean real world applications and their performance as a result. Ryzen is a bit behind but it doesn't really matter as it is close enough.

AMD's own number is a 52% increase in IPC over previous gen.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11143...or-under-330-preorder-today-on-sale-march-2nd

Enthusiasts and analysts use the term IPC, or ‘Instructions Per Clock’, as a measure of how much the underlying microarchitecture improves from generation to generation.
 
I think when people talk about IPC they mean real world applications and their performance as a result. Ryzen is a bit behind but it doesn't really matter as it is close enough.

AMD's own number is a 52% increase in IPC over previous gen.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11143...or-under-330-preorder-today-on-sale-march-2nd
Just because the general public misuses a word doesn't make it okay.
All i'm saying is that what people have identified as an IPC advantage for Intel isn't, it's simply a lack of software optimisation for ryzen; or another way of saying it software optimisation for intel processors.
 
Intel aren't "that far" off moving to 10nm and their 10nm is basically the same spec as GF's 7nm - GF has a slight advantage to fin pitch and a couple of other areas but nothing that is going to make that much difference and it looks like Intel's process will still have the frequency advantage. GF doesn't seem to be a great option for performance parts really better suited to low voltage operation. AMD would have to move production to Samsung really I think if they wanted to push the MHz race.

It's worth noting that we really don't know what speeds Intel will get on 10nm, and GloFo's 7nm looks set to be considerably faster than their 14nm. They are stating up front that they expect 1GHz higher clock speeds on similar parts so it's not at all unreasonable to believe a Zen 2 based chip on 7nm can achieve 5Ghz where Zen 1 is achieving 4Ghz on 14nm.

I would also say that the slight advantage isn't that slight. IIRC Intel are saying 54 or 52 fin, 36 metal pitch? While Glofo is saying 48/44 fin and 36 metal pitch. I'm guessing the 48 is using only quad patterning(this stuff is getting crazy now) and 44nm is done via EUV at a later date for important layers only maybe.

Once again we seem to be seeing a situation where Intel couldn't launch their desktop because clock speeds are too low early on 10nm to be viable so they pushed desktop back and went mobile only. On 14nm what we really saw was first gen 14nm couldn't match the clock speeds of the parts from the previous gen, then 14nm+ brought clock speeds that 22nm chips were achieving semi comfortably. Delaying 10nm for desktop heavily implies that they are absolutely struggling to match current gen clock speeds which certainly gives a high chance that even the updated 10nm + won't be higher than current clock speeds, just finally reaching the same point.

If Intel gain little to no clock speed again while GLoFo jump from 4 to 5Ghz the massive majority of their current advantage disappears, Zen 2 would also be more likely to make a bigger IPC gain than Intel's next 'real' architecture update as opposed to just being a new stepping of Skylake. Basically their architecture is fairly old and extremely well optimised with not much low hanging fruit while Zen is likely to have some fairly obvious things to address.

GloFo 7nm isn't aimed at low power at all, it's a majorly IBM focused process who have been making 5.5Ghz chips for ages and their processes always kept that in mind.

I forget the name of the guy who spent the last 2 years saying AMD were going to fail because GloFo's 'low power' 14nm process was both incapable of making large chips and incapable of achieving 4Ghz because it was called low power. Fact is Zen is incredibly efficient comparing it to the 7700k/6900k/7900x. For a supposedly awful process that is only for low power, their chips are competitive and certainly don't look as if they are on a far inferior node.

If we get Zen2 and potentially 12 core chips in the mainstream, up to 24 in x399, up to 48 in server and starting 14-16months from now and these cores are capable of being clocked with turbo of 4.5Ghz and overclock to 5Ghz.... Intel will be outmatched. The two things their process has a noticeable advantage on currently, die area and clock speeds both seem to be disappearing for the next node and rather than a 2 years headstart on the node, the headstart looks like it will be non existent when it comes to desktop. That is a serious turn around in such a short space of time.
 
Just because the general public misuses a word doesn't make it okay.
All i'm saying is that what people have identified as an IPC advantage for Intel isn't, it's simply a lack of software optimisation for ryzen; or another way of saying it software optimisation for intel processors.

Just having high physical IPC means squat. That is why nobody uses your definition for a performance context. No one is misusing the term, they are simply not using your irrelevant definition.

Your definition would mean processors have hardly progressed over the last 30 years.

For example, the original Core architecture did 4 instructions per clock. Yet I would like to see you say with a straight face that somehow is relevant when comparing performance of an original Core chip and current Kaby Lake.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/1998/4

march-comp-lg.png
 
Last edited:
I would also say that the slight advantage isn't that slight. IIRC Intel are saying 54 or 52 fin, 36 metal pitch? While Glofo is saying 48/44 fin and 36 metal pitch. I'm guessing the 48 is using only quad patterning(this stuff is getting crazy now) and 44nm is done via EUV at a later date for important layers only maybe.

Regardless of the comments on reddit, etc. last I heard gate pitch is effectively identical, GF has a slight advantage to fin pitch but not to a degree that would have an impact on who has the best performance.
 
Back
Top Bottom