Intel Core i7-11700K Review: Blasting Off with Rocket Lake

[KompuKare]

that is probably the sensible thing to do. when Eth 2.0 hit and the profitability of Eth dives those GPU demand will wane meaning more capacity for CPU thus end of year looks good for discounting. from price perspective, Zen 3 end of year or Intel 10th Gen now (inferior product again but a decent 15% off from the equivalent zen prices).

I don't think mining has much to do with CPU availability though. Consoles do, but I suspect that one of the main reasons there are so few RDNA2 cards is precisely because with the TMSC wafers AMD have left after the consoles, very few are going to GPUs.
If a 7nm TSMC wafer is $10,000 (but it might be closer to $15,000 after the recent shortages), then a Zen3 CCD costs around $14 to make ($23 @ $15k), whereas a Navi die costs around$160 ($240 @ $15k).
So faced with a shortage of wafer starts, GPUs will be at the back of the queue. Normally we'd think consoles would be at the back of the queue, but Microsoft's and Sony's contract seems very favourable to them: the XBX die costs around $100 ($150 at $15k) to make, but I doubt that AMD even make $100 on it whereas each Zen3 so far makes closer to $200 each.

 

[pc-guy]

I don't think mining has much to do with CPU availability though. Consoles do, but I suspect that one of the main reasons there are so few RDNA2 cards is precisely because with the TMSC wafers AMD have left after the consoles, very few are going to GPUs.
If a 7nm TSMC wafer is $10,000 (but it might be closer to $15,000 after the recent shortages), then a Zen3 CCD costs around $14 to make ($23 @ $15k), whereas a Navi die costs around$160 ($240 @ $15k).
So faced with a shortage of wafer starts, GPUs will be at the back of the queue. Normally we'd think consoles would be at the back of the queue, but Microsoft's and Sony's contract seems very favourable to them: the XBX die costs around $100 ($150 at $15k) to make, but I doubt that AMD even make $100 on it whereas each Zen3 so far makes closer to $200 each.

You are right. I keep on forgetting the Nvidia is on 8mm Samsung fab. It is easy in today’s world to think TSMC has a strangle hold on all silicons.

 

[humbug]

I don't think mining has much to do with CPU availability though. Consoles do, but I suspect that one of the main reasons there are so few RDNA2 cards is precisely because with the TMSC wafers AMD have left after the consoles, very few are going to GPUs.
If a 7nm TSMC wafer is $10,000 (but it might be closer to $15,000 after the recent shortages), then a Zen3 CCD costs around $14 to make ($23 @ $15k), whereas a Navi die costs around$160 ($240 @ $15k).
So faced with a shortage of wafer starts, GPUs will be at the back of the queue. Normally we'd think consoles would be at the back of the queue, but Microsoft's and Sony's contract seems very favourable to them: the XBX die costs around $100 ($150 at $15k) to make, but I doubt that AMD even make $100 on it whereas each Zen3 so far makes closer to $200 each.

I doubt AMD will be handing over 6700XT size console dies at a loss, it would bankrupt AMD, instead their revenue has gone up 30% since they started making them.

I think you would be surprised at just how much MS / Sony pay for these chips, they don't make money from the machines, they are probably sold at a loss, the money comes from subscriptions and game sales.

They will be selling a similar size die as a GPU for near $500 in a few weeks.

Sony and MS are not going to say to AMD hand over 80% of your capacity AT A LOSS!

 

[humbug]

AMD are the only guys willing to work with them, Nvidia can't as they don't make high performance X86 CPU's, Intel don't make cutting edge high performance GPU's, yet.

The last thing Sony / MS will want to do right now is pee AMD off and make them regret it, Sony / MS make a #### ton of money from subscriptions and game sales, the consoles themselves are just a vehicle to that, both of them will make sure AMD get their "worth it" slice of that.

 

[Radox-0]

I doubt AMD will be handing over 6700XT size console dies at a loss, it would bankrupt AMD, instead their revenue has gone up 30% since they started making them.

I think you would be surprised at just how much MS / Sony pay for these chips, they don't make money from the machines, they are probably sold at a loss, the money comes from subscriptions and game sales.

They will be selling a similar size die as a GPU for near $500 in a few weeks.

Sony and MS are not going to say to AMD hand over 80% of your capacity AT A LOSS!

I don't see @KompuKare suggesting AMD are making a loss on the Sony and MS products. What he is pointing out it AMD has set amount of wafer capacity at TSMC. Right now they would make a larger profit on zen 3 CPUs then they do selling Xbox dies (suggesting under $100 profit on console dies vs near $200 on Zen 3). Both are profits (not loss) but selling Zen 3 CPUs would be much more profitable then the console dies. As it stands however contracts are favourable to MS and Sony in terms of delivery dates guarantees as one would expect contracts to stipulate.

So looking at it from a pure monetary aspect AMD could have been better off producing Zen 3 chips if they could right now (until market saturates). There are however lots of intangible secondary benefits such as AMD knowing they have the inventory consistently moving, easy to forecast finances with Sony and Xbox contracts in place, dealing with two vendors for 80% of your supply vs dozens for piecemeals etc.

 

[humbug]

I don't see @KompuKare suggesting AMD are making a loss on the Sony and MS products. What he is pointing out it AMD has set amount of wafer capacity at TSMC. Right now they would make a larger profit on zen 3 CPUs then they do selling Xbox dies (suggesting under $100 profit on console dies vs near $200 on Zen 3). Both are profits (not loss) but selling Zen 3 CPUs would be much more profitable then the console dies. As it stands however contracts are favourable to MS and Sony in terms of delivery dates guarantees as one would expect contracts to stipulate.

So looking at it from a pure monetary aspect AMD could have been better off producing Zen 3 chips if they could right now (until market saturates). There are however lots of intangible secondary benefits such as AMD knowing they have the inventory consistently moving, easy to forecast finances with Sony and Xbox contracts in place, dealing with two vendors for 80% of your supply vs dozens for piecemeals etc.

Sorry i miss understood

"£100 Profit" on the console dies isn't bad, by his calculations they would be selling them at £200 a pop, i think the 6700XT dies will be sold to AIB's for a lot more than that but AMD do have contractual obligations to MS /Sony, to be fair AMD would have gone bust without them years ago, over the bad years the consoles kept AMD afloat.

Anyway yes..... he's no doubt right the highest profits come from Zen 3, there is the rather large 12nm IO Die but those wafers from GloFo will cost peanuts. 2 grand a pop maybe?

At this point perhaps AMD would do a lot better if they didn't have silicon in those consoles.

 

[timorous]

He seems to use the same Thermalright cooler for his recent Intel reviews. It wasn't the 'best cooler on the market' in 2008 when it came out and is definitely nowhere near the best air cooler in 2021. I'd hazard a guess that his temperature readings are going on for ~10c off from if he did use a current air cooler like the D15 etc.

I agree that Rocketlake is a bit of a dud but his testing methodology leaves a lot to be desired.

About that. In a 2 fan config it does about the same as an NH-D14 in a 3 fan config see https://www.overclockers.com/premium-heatsink-shootout/. Also Ian is using 2x173 CFM fans so between the high performance and extreme performance graphs in this review (high was using 2x 75cfm fans and extreme was 2x 300cfm fans). I know the D15 is a bit better than the D14 but we are talking 2/3 degrees between a D15 and the True Copper here with the fan setup used so to say it is likely 10c higher than a D15 just does not seem correct.

EDIT: Here is a comparison of the D14 to the D15 https://www.overclockers.com/noctua-nh-d15-heatsink-review/. So yea, True Copper is much closer to the D15 than you said.

 

[KompuKare]

Yes, I was pointed out that the profit is less not suggesting they are making on a loss on them!
As well as all the points @Radox-0 mentioned, there is also the fact that MS / Sony have paid a lot of the R&D costs for RDNA2 upfront. Similarly how the original Xbox One and PS4 work helped AMD's Radeon products out a lot.
The other point about

As it stands however contracts are favourable to MS and Sony in terms of delivery dates guarantees as one would expect contracts to stipulate.

is a bit mixed as certainly rumours point out to Sony in particularly increasing the orders a lot after the XBX forced them to up the clocks (and hence reduce the yields of usable dies - BTW I wouldn't mind some of those rejects as they must have plenty of usable dies which couldn't meet the new clocks), that part of the contract is a mystery as it seems MS/Sony are suddenly getting first choice for more wafers than forecast at the expense of AMD's other business.

 

[Radox-0]

Yes, I was pointed out that the profit is less not suggesting they are making on a loss on them!
As well as all the points @Radox-0 mentioned, there is also the fact that MS / Sony have paid a lot of the R&D costs for RDNA2 upfront. Similarly how the original Xbox One and PS4 work helped AMD's Radeon products out a lot.
The other point about

is a bit mixed as certainly rumours point out to Sony in particularly increasing the orders a lot after the XBX forced them to up the clocks (and hence reduce the yields of usable dies - BTW I wouldn't mind some of those rejects as they must have plenty of usable dies which couldn't meet the new clocks), that part of the contract is a mystery as it seems MS/Sony are suddenly getting first choice for more wafers than forecast at the expense of AMD's other business.

I would not be surprised if there may be a surge contingency or similar in the contract. So if demand for the consoles is significantly greater then forecast, may be that AMD agreed to give a higher portion to the console makers. Of course no one will really know without having the contracts to review

Would be curious where these dies which fail to make the clock speeds needed for Sony end up. Off the top of my head not sure where else a similar SOC is being used right now.

 

[elrasho]

guess Im getting a Ryzen 7 5800X then

 

[humbug]

guess Im getting a Ryzen 7 5800X then

lol...

 

[DeathStorm]

true but so many people have been burnt by AMD 'niggles' in the past

you want something to work with less hassle buy intel

The only CPU I've had die on me was an Intel, should I go around warning people that Intel CPUs just die randomly?

You can tell when Intel is doing poorly, AMD gets labelled as problematic.

 

[humbug]

Skt 478 Pentium IV 3.2Ghz HT (lets not go there)
AthlonXP 3800+ (saved my sanity)
Athlon X2 5200+ (Rock Solid)
Phenom II X6 1090T (Rock Solid)
FX-9590 (My Only regret)
i7 930 (Phew... much better)
4690K (Rock Solid)
Ryzen 1600 (Early teething issues but rock solid after a couple BIOS revisions)
Ryzen 3600 (Rock Solid)
Ryzen 5800X (Rock Solid)

 

[elrasho]

Skt 478 Pentium IV 3.2Ghz HT (lets not go there)
AthlonXP 3800+ (saved my sanity)
Athlon X2 5200+ (Rock Solid)
Phenom II X6 1090T (Rock Solid)
FX-9590 (My Only regret)
i7 930 (Phew... much better)
4690K (Rock Solid)
Ryzen 1600 (Early teething issues but rock solid after a couple BIOS revisions)
Ryzen 3600 (Rock Solid)
Ryzen 5800X (Rock Solid)

I want to see a Ryzen "Rock Solid" Edition lol

 

[humbug]

I want to see a Ryzen "Rock Solid" Edition lol

lol...

That reminds me of what i do miss, the "Black Edition" AMD used to name their unlocked CPU's, they always came in a blacked out box.

They are all unlocked now so that wouldn't really work but it would be fun to bring that back. "Mine is the Black Edition" its just so cool...

 

[Gray2233]

lol...

That reminds me of what i do miss, the "Black Edition" AMD used to name their unlocked CPU's, they always came in a blacked out box.

They are all unlocked now so that wouldn't really work but it would be fun to bring that back. "Mine is the Black Edition" its just so cool...

They should do a special "Blue Ice" edition instead, binned chips with marketing spiel that they're much cooler than the competition.

 

[humbug]

They should do a special "Blue Ice" edition instead, binned chips with marketing spiel that they're much cooler than the competition.

Aha... yea, that's one thing about the 5800X, weirdly, not so much the 5900X or even the 5950X, despite it using no power, really, it likes to run warm, and by warm i mean hot, apparently this is normal and it doesn't matter if you're running a £40 cooler or a £110 360mm AIO, Damn it! it insists at running at about 80c under high loads, or even a bit more.

Somehow AMD have thwarted the laws of thermodynamics, but only with the 5800X.

Its a strange one. @elrasho

 

[humbug]

The Rad is always stone cold, the MB VRMs top out at 50c, there is no heat coming off it at all.... it appears to be as cool as a refrigerated cucumber, until you look at the temperature monitoring. Its as if AMD added a 30c delta to the monitoring to get people scratching their heads, for a laugh. and it really doesn't seem to matter how good your cooler is, as long as its a half decent one, a much better one makes no difference.

 

[Minstadave]

Aha... yea, that's one thing about the 5800X, weirdly, not so much the 5900X or even the 5950X, despite it using no power, really, it likes to run warm, and by warm i mean hot, apparently this is normal and it doesn't matter if you're running a £40 cooler or a £110 360mm AIO, Damn it! it insists at running at about 80c under high loads, or even a bit more.

Somehow AMD have thwarted the laws of thermodynamics, but only with the 5800X.

Its a strange one. @elrasho

It's to do with the thermal density of 7nm and will only get worse as nodes shrink. The heat produced isn't huge but is so concentrated in a small area it is hard to get it away quickly enough resulting in higher temps.

With a larger process the heat is easier to transfer across a broader area of the IHS into the cooler baseplate.

The 5800X is 105W on a single chiplet.

The 5900X and 5950X are 105W over two chiplets.

 

[Locky]

Come on DG this is just low effort drivel. You think Rocketlake will just work with no issues cooling its almost 300W peak power usage?

Intel is hardly without issues on its CPUs. Look at all the exploits they've had to fix with performance reducing patches.

I don't disagree AMD are issues but the USB disconnect issue is massively overblown and RAM compatibility hasn't been an significant issue since Zen 2. There are some people reporting reporting crashing issues but it seems to be pretty infrequent.

My 5900X has been faultless, apart from the fact it's entirely imaginary according to Dave2150.

He does have a point. All the guys who game with us with AMD have some funny little issues with things. It just isn't as mature as an Intel platform YET - thats it.