Intel Now Operating On A Net Loss, $1.61 Billion In The Red

Minstadave · 2 Dec 2024 at 14:18

throwaway4372 said:
Intel Announces Retirement of CEO Pat Gelsinger

David Zinsner and Michelle Johnston Holthaus named interim Co-CEOs. Holthaus also appointed to the newly created position of CEO of Intel Products. Frank Yeary named interim executive chair.

www.intel.com

I wondered why their shares jumped.

JediFragger · 2 Dec 2024 at 14:47

Damn, wasn't Gelsinger meant to be their big saviour!!!

SpellowHouse · 2 Dec 2024 at 15:21

JediFragger said:
Damn, wasn't Gelsinger meant to be their big saviour!!

Well, yes.

I think he had the right idea, but there have obviously been a lot of issues with the 13th, 14th and 15th gen CPU's. Not to mention that they have had to turn to external fabrication (again) and we don't know what's going on in those meetings but there still is no sign of a decent fix for the 15th.

intel can never die, it's too big, but it certainly can end up being split up, and that could be very bad news for gaming.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:11

SpellowHouse said:
Well, yes.

I think he had the right idea, but there have obviously been a lot of issues with the 13th, 14th and 15th gen CPU's. Not to mention that they have had to turn to external fabrication (again) and we don't know what's going on in those meetings but there still is no sign of a decent fix for the 15th.

intel can never die, it's too big, but it certainly can end up being split up, and that could be very bad news for gaming.

Arrow Lake design was mostly pre Pat. Probably the first design he might have been able to influence. 2025 is when we will really see the first Pat products, I thought they would give him at least that.

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:21

Was the decision not to use the 20a process a Pat decision though?

I have to wonder if it would have been better to delay the 15th gen for a while, sticking to a rigid release schedule definitely looks like a mistake.

Intel has never done this before, and I don’t think using TSMC for new 2024 products has done them any favours.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:28

g67575 said:
Was the decision not to use the 20a process a Pat decision though?

I have to wonder if it would have been better to delay the 15th gen for a while, sticking to a rigid release schedule definitely looks like a mistake.

Intel has never done this before, and I don’t think using TSMC for new 2024 products has done them any favours.

20A was a de-risk node, never intended for mass production. 20A was going to be used for one,two low volume ARL skus at most.

ARL was pretty much set in stone from late 21. First deal with TSCM was pre-Pat.

pete910 · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:29

g67575 said:
Intel has never done this before, and I don’t think using TSMC for new 2024 products has done them any favours.

Don't for a second think it looks good to their share holders !

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:32

cebri said:
20A was a de-risk node, never intended for mass production. 20A was going to be used for one,two low volume ARL skus at most.

ARL was pretty much set in stone from late 21. First deal with TSCM was pre-Pat.

The problem is that their roadmaps showed 20a as the process, and that was the original intent.

They later said there had been problems with defects on the node, but described the decision not to use 20a as a ‘learning process’.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:36

g67575 said:
The problem is that their roadmaps showed 20a as the process, and that was the original intent.

They later said their had been problems with defects on the node, but described the decision not to use 20a as a ‘learning process’.

I don’t think 20A was “ditched” , 18A and 20A are almost the same node. The 18A we are getting is very close to the original 20A announced, and 18AP is close to the original 18A. Ditching 20A was irrelevant because there were no major products announced at any moment for it.

I don’t think anyone has said 20A had a defect problem. If 18A is in good shape as rumored, then 20A did its job.

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:40

cebri said:
I don’t think 20A was “ditched” , 18A and 20A are almost the same node. The 18A we are getting is very close to the original 20A announced, and 18AP is close to the original 18A. Ditching 20A was irrelevant because there were no major products announced at any moment for it.

Arrow Lake was meant to fabbed on 20a. Which also included other improvements to power delivery and transistor design. It would have made use of EUV lithography also.

So the decision was not at all irrelevent, because it is a significant improvement on their previous nodes, especially compared to the Intel 7 process / 10nm used on the 12th to 14th gen desktop processors.

The problem with waiting for 18a, which Intel’s last CEO said he was betting the company on, is that it won’t see wide usage until 2026.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:43

g67575 said:
Arrow Lake was meant to fabbed on 20a. Which also included other improvements to power delivery.

So the decision was not at all irrelevent, because it is a significant improvement on their previous nodes, especially compared to the Intel 7 process / 10nm used on the 12th to 14th gen desktop processors.

No, ARL was 98% N3B, it was designed for that node since late 2020, early 21. Some skus (maybe only one) could have used 20A.

One (or two) skus is not significant by any means. 20A was not even in the cards when ARL was being designed.

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:45

cebri said:
No, ARL was 98% N3B, it was designed for that node since late 2020, early 21. Some skus (maybe only one) could have used 20A.

One (or two) skus is not significant by any means. 20A was not even in the cards when ARL was being designed.

You are just going by random stuff in the rumour mill, or am I mistaken?

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:50

cebri said:
No, ARL was 98% N3B, it was designed for that node since late 2020, early 21. Some skus (maybe only one) could have used 20A.

One (or two) skus is not significant by any means. 20A was not even in the cards when ARL was being designed.

They also had working prototypes of 20a for Arrow Lake, that were working and ‘booting Windows’, as impressive as that may sound… At no point they they mention using TSMC for the CPU tile instead, it wasn’t what they hoped for clearly.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:52

g67575 said:
You are just going by random stuff in the rumour mill, or am I mistaken?

I don’t know what you mean. The 5 nodes in 4 years was announced by Pat in 2021, ARL was being designed before that and Intel already had bought capacity from TSCM for their 3N process.

Never at any point Intel attached a whole product line up to 20A.

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:53

cebri said:
I don’t know what you mean. The 5 nodes in 4 years was announced by Pat in 2021, ARL was being designed before that and Intel already had bought capacity from TSCM for their 3N process.

Never at any point Intel attached a whole product line up to 20A.

There’s nothing to substantiate what you are saying, sorry if that sounds rude.

There are Intel roadmaps with 20a and Arrow Lake clearly marked on them.

Here:

https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Intel-Meteor-Lake-Arrow-Lake-Lunar-Lake_-Hot-Chips-34_35.png

but what was released was something different, since it did not make use of the 20a process at all.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 16:59

g67575 said:
There’s nothing to substantiate what you are saying, sorry if that sounds rude.

There are roadmaps with 20a and Arrow Lake clearly marked on them.

20A AND External N3. Again, Intel has never said ARL was going to be on 20A only, that’s simply not true.

TSMC to make 3nm chips for Intel in 2020

Intel is no secret that Intel is outsourcing its chip fabrication more and more. Allegedly TSMC has struck a new deal with Intel. The chip foundry is on track with its 3nm process technology to manufa...

www.guru3d.com

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 17:01

cebri said:
20A AND External N3. Again, Intel has never said ARL was going to be on 20A only, that’s simply not true.

TSMC to make 3nm chips for Intel in 2020

Intel is no secret that Intel is outsourcing its chip fabrication more and more. Allegedly TSMC has struck a new deal with Intel. The chip foundry is on track with its 3nm process technology to manufa...

www.guru3d.com

“according to sources from Digitimes.”

Sorry, clearly rumour mill source.

Intel can’t have it both ways, either the roadmap is correct or it is not.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 17:02

g67575 said:
“according to sources from Digitimes.”

Sorry, clearly rumour mill source.

Please provide me the source where Intel said ARL was 20A only.

g67575 · 2 Dec 2024 at 17:05

cebri said:
Please provide me the source where Intel said ARL was 20A only.

The roadmap shows it clearly making use of 20a.

The released product does not use 20a at all.

Logically, it was never going to be 20a for anything but the compute / CPU tile, and this is implied by the roadmap, when comparing the intel 4 process of the previous generation (Meteor Lake being the example they give) with the 20a process.

This doesn’t mean official roadmaps can’t be trusted anymore, but it does mean that this was not Intel’s original plan for Arrow Lake.

cebri · 2 Dec 2024 at 17:10

g67575 said:
The roadmap shows it clearly making use of 20a.

The released product does not use 20a at all.

Logically, it was never going to be 20a for anything but the compute tile, and this is implied by the roadmap, when comparing the intel 4 process of the previous generation (Meteor Lake being the example they give) with the 20a process.

In what is any of that contradicting what am I saying? I said there were some SKUs planned on 20A that were ditched (yes according to rumours) but there was never any information that pointed to anything other than N3B being used massively for Arrow and Lunar Lake. And this is not a decision you can make 12 months before launch.