Interconnects

joeyjojo · 9 Nov 2015 at 18:18

I'm not going to be through in replying to all the above points. Suffice to say basing any argument on interconnects on internal (speaker or component) wiring or speaker (as you quite rightly pointed out lucid) is tangential at best.

All that's left is to recommend reading this nice article I just found that does the job much better than I can:

The Truth About Interconnects and Cables (audioholics)

9designs2 · 9 Nov 2015 at 21:50

So nothing new here then......... the same old links posted, the same old mantra trotted out....
Now one said cables do "magic".... you can't improve on some that doesn't exist..... but "audiophiles" get accused of believing it anyway.

As Lucid has pointed out some cables can "change" the the sound, so don't, some people can't tell the difference between speakers even...
So also this can be measured and controlled by a standard? I think not.

So it's better to be keyboard warrior and quote bits internet hearsay than perhaps gain and little bit of personal experience?

So changing a cable that modifies the sound of the system a little to something more enjoyable for reasonable cost should be avoided?.... Because someone on the internet said it's not possible....

Then it's better to go change say the speakers for hundreds or thousands of pounds to make small adjustment in the sound?

Making a great sounding set-up is often about the attention to detail and extracting the most you can from what you have... carefully matching equipment, which you can't do by reading a few data sheets... you can't tell how a speaker sounds be reading spec sheet for example, or any other item in the audio chain......... but you can by listening to it :eek:

..... and on that bombshell... I'll go play some music......on my "audiofool" system :rolleyes:

Yaayuh! · 9 Nov 2015 at 22:37

Spoffle joins in as per usual
Then 9designs2 says "Modifies the sound a little for a reasonable cost"

You guys are great

All out of popcorn

how long for lock?

9designs2 · 9 Nov 2015 at 22:50

Rossi~ said:
Spoffle joins in as per usual
Then "Modifies the sound a little for a reasonable cost"

You guys are great

All out of popcorn how long for lock?

Trying to avoid being accused of using "audiophile speak" as he'll get stressy about it as usual

spoffle · 9 Nov 2015 at 22:50

9designs2 said:
So nothing new here then......... the same old links posted, the same old mantra trotted out....
Now one said cables do "magic".... you can't improve on some that doesn't exist..... but "audiophiles" get accused of believing it anyway.

As Lucid has pointed out some cables can "change" the the sound, so don't, some people can't tell the difference between speakers even...
So also this can be measured and controlled by a standard? I think not.

So it's better to be keyboard warrior and quote bits internet hearsay than perhaps gain and little bit of personal experience?

So changing a cable that modifies the sound of the system a little to something more enjoyable for reasonable cost should be avoided?.... Because someone on the internet said it's not possible....

Then it's better to go change say the speakers for hundreds or thousands of pounds to make small adjustment in the sound?

Making a great sounding set-up is often about the attention to detail and extracting the most you can from what you have... carefully matching equipment, which you can't do by reading a few data sheets... you can't tell how a speaker sounds be reading spec sheet for example, or any other item in the audio chain......... but you can by listening to it ..... and on that bombshell... I'll go play some music......on my "audiofool" system

You seem to be taking things very personally...

You might not believe in magical cables, but they're certainly a bunch of audiophiles that do. There's a forum where they have a section that's against double blind testing so that they can listen to their power cables and cable risers in peace.

Speaking of changing what's being said; no one said cables don't CHANGE sound, they do if you've got a bad one that's inadequate, it'll degrade sound quality.

There is however absolutely no proof at all that cables have audio properties, and contribute to a change in sound for that better unless it's simply with a cable unsuitable for the electrical load.

But keeping on thinking people have said otherwise.

Rossi~ said:
Spoffle joins in as per usual
Then "Modifies the sound a little for a reasonable cost"

You guys are great

All out of popcorn how long for lock?

Where did I say that?

9designs2 · 9 Nov 2015 at 22:54

Have you ever listened for yourself? if yes what exactly?

Marsman · 9 Nov 2015 at 23:03

So.. thread inevitably went the same way they all do.

Mods need to add another forum rule: Anyone who creates a thread asking whether buying expensive cable makes any difference to sound, will be suspended.

spoffle · 9 Nov 2015 at 23:33

9designs2 said:
Have you ever listened for yourself? if yes what exactly?

It's pointless. There is no solid evidence that correctly specced cables do anything for sound quality outside of anecdotes and "I can hear X so it's definitely there".

In controlled tests and environments, people simply can't demonstrate an ability to hear differences.

If you believe you can, well James Randi's got a million dollars with your name on it, so what are you waiting for?

9designs2 · 9 Nov 2015 at 23:50

spoffle said:
It's pointless. There is no solid evidence that correctly specced cables do anything for sound quality outside of anecdotes and "I can hear X so it's definitely there".

In controlled tests and environments, people simply can't demonstrate an ability to hear differences.

If you believe you can, well James Randi's got a million dollars with your name on it, so what are you waiting for?

Very predictable....

Do I get to choose the cables?

spoffle · 10 Nov 2015 at 00:02

Predictable because that's how it is. There's no proof outside of people claiming to be able to do it. So as I said, that million dollars, when are you arranging its collection?

lucid · 10 Nov 2015 at 01:57

Does anyone else see the irony?

One bunch of audio enthusiasts getting criticised for being open-minded enough to go listen for themselves, while the critics seem happy to base their own opinions on someone else's say so.

I'm lmao here.

What skin is it off anyone else's nose what cables people use to connect their gear? The only thing I'd like to see is some better information at the bottom end of the market to help people understand what they're buying. IMO if your view is that cables aren't important then you should at least be able to look at the specs and choose the cheapest that you think will do the job. That doesn't happen right now because the information just isn't there. People are spending 2x 3x 4x or more than they need to, and they're basing their purchase mostly on what a cable looks like in a picture.

However, if that is your approach then please don't come here after and tell me that just because you can't tell a difference that I should follow your example. You can express your opinion, but that doesn't make you any more right than me.

The James Randi million dollar challenge is something of a red herring too. AFAIK in order to win it one must be able to prove that the cable exhibits some "psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability" to change the listeners perception. A listening challenge is one thing, but proving the existence of cable ghosts.... come on now

. If anyone would like to come and have a bit of fun listening to find out if they can hear some differences then I'll do what I have done for the past five or so years and offer to lay on a demo. There's no pressure, and it's not scientific, just a bit of fun. So far no one has taken up the offer, but one day.... maybe.

9designs2 · 10 Nov 2015 at 06:42

Well said.... It's the irony that annoys me.....

I actually did a cable demo couple of weeks back, home loan for a week of two cables against my own. No suprise I haven't written and posted that little event hey.

Cosimo · 10 Nov 2015 at 07:18

Marsman said:
So.. thread inevitably went the same way they all do.

Mods need to add another forum rule: Anyone who creates a thread asking whether buying expensive cable makes any difference to sound, will be suspended.

Much easier to just ban a couple of the hifi trolls from this part of the forum.

Cosimo · 10 Nov 2015 at 07:26

9designs2 said:
Have you ever listened for yourself? if yes what exactly?

You know what the answer is. Best thing to do is to continue whilst ignoring the troll.

Yaayuh! · 10 Nov 2015 at 08:10

spoffle said:
Where did I say that?

You didn't, 9designs2 did.

joeyjojo · 10 Nov 2015 at 08:15

Just checking back in, why all the moaning? The conversation was factual and civil wasn't it? My troll detector isn't going off.

lucid said:
Does anyone else see the irony?

One bunch of audio enthusiasts getting criticised for being open-minded enough to go listen for themselves, while the critics seem happy to base their own opinions on someone else's say so.

I'm not criticising listening, I'm trying to encourage it! Because as I said, as far as I'm aware it's not possible to tell cables apart (inc. interconnects). If you discover otherwise please let me know.

In terms of controlled tests of interconnects there are at least eight in the link below, all failures. In the second one for example ([French] Double blind test of interconnects, by Pio2001), some blokes tested interconnects costing between €2.30 and €560/m on a system costing over €25,000. And they couldn't hear any differences.

https://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=82777

9designs2 said:
I actually did a cable demo couple of weeks back, home loan for a week of two cables against my own. No suprise I haven't written and posted that little event hey.

Why not? What was the outcome?

Broken Hope · 10 Nov 2015 at 08:23

My problem with the whole cable discussion is that unless you're on the extremely high end of the hifi scale where you'd have to spend 2-3x the cost of your current equipment to see a decent upgrade, then the £100-£300 you're spending on high end cables is probably better spent going towards better speakers or a better amp etc.

Armageus · 10 Nov 2015 at 09:00

9designs2 said:
Now one said cables do "magic".... you can't improve on some that doesn't exist..... but "audiophiles" get accused of believing it anyway.

Unfortunately though audiophiles reject scientific testing as proof, so once you have eliminated any scientific differences in the cable that can be proven, then all you are left with is in effect "magic". Non-audiophiles can't prove or disprove this "magic", so then we end up in this deadlock situation.

9designs2 said:
So it's better to be keyboard warrior and quote bits internet hearsay than perhaps gain and little bit of personal experience?

It's not about being a keyboard warrior though - we are all on this forum either for advice or to learn something.

9designs2 said:
you can't tell how a speaker sounds be reading spec sheet for example, or any other item in the audio chain......... but you can by listening to it

No you can't tell how a speaker sounds by reading a spec sheet, much like you can't tell how a car is to drive by reading it's spec sheet. The difference being a car dealer will let you test drive a car (and normally let you drive it how you wish), whereas it's difficult to test speakers or other hifi equipment in your exact setup (in your room with your other components, at the volume levels you enjoy, using your source material).
At least by looking at Speaker spec sheets you gain some knowledge over whether the Speakers will be more powerful, have better frequency response etc), Cables on the other hand, other than physical construction have no specs listed, as it is lost in the "magic" part previously mentioned.

lucid said:
Does anyone else see the irony?

One bunch of audio enthusiasts getting criticised for being open-minded enough to go listen for themselves, while the critics seem happy to base their own opinions on someone else's say so.

We all visit this forum because we have an interest in overclocking (or computers in general), it is a forum for enthusiasts - the difficulty is that whilst it's easy to recommend or hand out advice for overclocking and computing products (where you can back up your argument with data sheets or benchmarks), for Audio products it's difficult to provide this proof.

joeyjojo said:
In terms of controlled tests of interconnects there are at least eight in the link below, all failures. In the second one for example ([French] Double blind test of interconnects, by Pio2001), some blokes tested interconnects costing between €2.30 and €560/m on a system costing over €25,000. And they couldn't hear any differences.

https://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=82777

Interesting links, thank you. Another one very similar that I found earlier was: http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

lude1962 · 10 Nov 2015 at 09:25

lucid said:
I suppose someone had better ring KEF then and tell them they're wasting their time

I'm with you on gold plated TosLinks though

A contrary argument could be, they use shielded cables not to increase the sound quality, but to increase profit margins by the reasoning of 'look at our cables ', extra £2 spent, £100 on the price.
Interestingly , the cables are marked High Definition OFC, which I assume normal OFC must be low/std definition.

mid_gen · 10 Nov 2015 at 09:30

A decent 10 quid range shielded cable is enough for me...obviously super cheap plastic coated stuff is no good if you have a decent setup....you only have to let a cheap cable hang near an AC current between your turntable and pre-amp to hear that shielding matters.

The silly price stuff though....well cables are for carrying electrical signals. Electrical signals have very definite, quantifiable properties. Ever wondered why high-end interconnect reviews don't quote the electrical properties of the wire, which could you know, actually be measured?