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What does the number of complaints have to do with establishing if there's a design flaw?
Why does it concern you if people get replacement handsets?
iPhone 6+ bendgate issue.
- Thread starter scoopex
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What does the number of complaints have to do with establishing if there's a design flaw?
Why does it concern you if people get replacement handsets?
There is a correlation between number of complaints and the ability to identify a design flaw... All iPhones = design flaw, a few iPhones = manufacturing flaw... that is the black and white of it, but of course we live in grey...
I don't get what you are trying to get at here... and really can't tell if you are being serious.
If you think I am bothered that 1) people have an bent iPhone and 2) that people will get them replaced, then you are mistaken...
It isn't redundant, both sides are making equally as ridiculous arguements simply in opposite directions. People who are either saying there is no problem or people taking the oppurtunity to lambast Apple are both jumping on bang wagons.
I suspect that it is a design flaw too but the media and some people on here are claiming and acting like it is the worst thing ever and no-one should ever buy Apple products again because they are charging a premium but not offering premium products anymore. The reality is even adding up everyone who is claiming to have a bent phone is still a ridiculously small number of the total sold. Does that mean it isn't an issue? No, simply no one can claim to know if it is an issue and if it is, how big of an issue it is.
Porsche suffered fires in 0.25% of their 911 GT3's before a recall, Apple suffer a problem so far in less than 0.0001% and its the internets bigger problem ever!
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Well for those interested there is a very interesting comment on Reddit with a bunch of engineers pitching in fully explaining the flaw in the design of the iphone 6. It's fairly easy to go on Reddit and find more then nine cases within minutes so the nine figure is pretty clearly the result of some subjective selection of cases.
Anyway here is the post in spoiler tags, it's a good read:
Anyway here is the post in spoiler tags, it's a good read:
This isn't right. iPhone's bending problem has nothing to do with aluminum. It has everything to do with geometry.
((Edit: Material choice matters, always. But material has to work together with the geometry it's been shaped into. The choice of aluminum here isn't the limiting factor. The geometric design of the aluminum chassis is.))
Nobody uses pure aluminum for general purpose manufacturing. They use aluminum alloys instead. And the alloys themselves are incredibly diverse.
You can get extremely rigid alloys that will be incredibly difficult to bend even in thin structures prone to bending (such as 7075), but the disadvantage of that is difficulty of machining (and often welding too). This type is dominantly used in transportation industry (automotive, marine, aircraft, etc). Manufacturers take the additional manufacturing costs in order to reap the great strength-to-density ratio.
And then there are buttery soft alloys that are extremely easy to machine (3031 for instance), even manually, but they're also way too deformable to be useful for any load bearing purposes. I don't have too much experience with these, but they're cheap, and generally a good choice for decorative uses.
Apple uses anodized 6000 series aluminum (most likely 6061, possibly a tempered variant like -T4 edit: apparently it's 6003, which is similar to 6061 in properties). This is a good compromise between the extremes, and is the most ubiquitous aluminum alloy out there. It's got good mechanical properties, easy to machine, easy to weld. Their choice of material was correct in this case.
The problem with the iPhone 6 chassis comes from something we call "stress concentration" in engineering and this phenomenon is related to the geometry of an object. More specifically, it has to do with the cross section profile that is being bent.
If you watch the bending test video, you'll notice that iPhone 6 bent exactly at the root of the volume buttons. And if you look even more closely, you'll notice that the bending is actually on just one side -- the side of the volume buttons. The opposite side is actually mostly unscathed.
This is because the cross section area of the bending profile decreases dramatically right at that point. They have cut out a hole to accommodate the volume buttons, and when under loading, the internal stresses of the structure are being concentrated at the base of this cutout. So when the structure fails, it fails at that point. The lower cross section area decreases the resistance to bending, and makes it possible to bend the chassis at a lower applied force than what it would take otherwise, had the volume buttons not been there (but of course they have to be there).
The result here wouldn't have changed if Apple had used plastic in place of aluminum. In fact, it probably would have been worse. Typically phone manufacturers use brittle plastic in their devices (ductile plastic is the kind that feels really cheap and terrible), so the chassis would have broken entirely at the same point. They could have avoided the issue, maybe, if they opted for steel or a tougher aluminum alloy but then you run into other problems and have to retool essentially your entire product line.
The reason why Galaxy Note 3 passes the bending test doesn't have anything to do with the material it's made out of. It has everything to do with the internal geometry of the chassis. The internal magnesium alloy chassis (which isn't any better than aluminum as a material) has an I-beam cross section that is great against bending, and it's further sandwiched between two shells, which are in this case plastic. It's reinforced very thoroughly, to the point where human-applied forces cannot bend the device beyond its "elastic range" (this is the deformation range within which the device can recover to its original state when loads are removed).
Apple could have designed the aluminum chassis in a way that would accomplish the exact same thing, and if they had, people wouldn't be mistakenly criticizing the aluminum here. They would just be talking about how nice the material feels to the touch (because it does, and yes, it is "premium" much more so than plastic). Unfortunately, they ****ed it up. Again, it's all in the geometry.
Edit: Some more detail because people are pointing out the magnesium alloy internal chassis in Note 3, even though the material is not what makes the difference.
((Edit: Material choice matters, always. But material has to work together with the geometry it's been shaped into. The choice of aluminum here isn't the limiting factor. The geometric design of the aluminum chassis is.))
Nobody uses pure aluminum for general purpose manufacturing. They use aluminum alloys instead. And the alloys themselves are incredibly diverse.
You can get extremely rigid alloys that will be incredibly difficult to bend even in thin structures prone to bending (such as 7075), but the disadvantage of that is difficulty of machining (and often welding too). This type is dominantly used in transportation industry (automotive, marine, aircraft, etc). Manufacturers take the additional manufacturing costs in order to reap the great strength-to-density ratio.
And then there are buttery soft alloys that are extremely easy to machine (3031 for instance), even manually, but they're also way too deformable to be useful for any load bearing purposes. I don't have too much experience with these, but they're cheap, and generally a good choice for decorative uses.
Apple uses anodized 6000 series aluminum (most likely 6061, possibly a tempered variant like -T4 edit: apparently it's 6003, which is similar to 6061 in properties). This is a good compromise between the extremes, and is the most ubiquitous aluminum alloy out there. It's got good mechanical properties, easy to machine, easy to weld. Their choice of material was correct in this case.
The problem with the iPhone 6 chassis comes from something we call "stress concentration" in engineering and this phenomenon is related to the geometry of an object. More specifically, it has to do with the cross section profile that is being bent.
If you watch the bending test video, you'll notice that iPhone 6 bent exactly at the root of the volume buttons. And if you look even more closely, you'll notice that the bending is actually on just one side -- the side of the volume buttons. The opposite side is actually mostly unscathed.
This is because the cross section area of the bending profile decreases dramatically right at that point. They have cut out a hole to accommodate the volume buttons, and when under loading, the internal stresses of the structure are being concentrated at the base of this cutout. So when the structure fails, it fails at that point. The lower cross section area decreases the resistance to bending, and makes it possible to bend the chassis at a lower applied force than what it would take otherwise, had the volume buttons not been there (but of course they have to be there).
The result here wouldn't have changed if Apple had used plastic in place of aluminum. In fact, it probably would have been worse. Typically phone manufacturers use brittle plastic in their devices (ductile plastic is the kind that feels really cheap and terrible), so the chassis would have broken entirely at the same point. They could have avoided the issue, maybe, if they opted for steel or a tougher aluminum alloy but then you run into other problems and have to retool essentially your entire product line.
The reason why Galaxy Note 3 passes the bending test doesn't have anything to do with the material it's made out of. It has everything to do with the internal geometry of the chassis. The internal magnesium alloy chassis (which isn't any better than aluminum as a material) has an I-beam cross section that is great against bending, and it's further sandwiched between two shells, which are in this case plastic. It's reinforced very thoroughly, to the point where human-applied forces cannot bend the device beyond its "elastic range" (this is the deformation range within which the device can recover to its original state when loads are removed).
Apple could have designed the aluminum chassis in a way that would accomplish the exact same thing, and if they had, people wouldn't be mistakenly criticizing the aluminum here. They would just be talking about how nice the material feels to the touch (because it does, and yes, it is "premium" much more so than plastic). Unfortunately, they ****ed it up. Again, it's all in the geometry.
Edit: Some more detail because people are pointing out the magnesium alloy internal chassis in Note 3, even though the material is not what makes the difference.
Quite right.
There is most likely some sort of design weakness here, perhaps it's being exaggerated, perhaps not.
This is really something that probably won't affect the majority of people, it's being blown out of proportion simply because it's Apple, and the iPhone is one of the most talked about consumer items in the world. People slated the iPhone 4 no end, but it was still one of the best phones (and electronic products) ever and I never had a problem with the signal on either of mine.
I seriously doubt it'll bend if it's in a regular jeans front pocket, and perhaps a few batches have a bigger weakness that others don't.
And, on top of all that, Apple are more than happy to replace any phones that have suffered this. The genuine number will be difficult to find out now as there will be loads of people doing 'bend tests' and other similar things. If you had a problem with a similar Samsung product, they more or less pretend to repair it, or tell you to **** off, so they have no right to be making fun of anyone.
Time will tell if it's really as bad as what's being reported.
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Associate
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You're missing the point, deciding if there's a fault is not determined by the number of complaints about it. In other words, using the argument that only x number of people complained does not reassure me that there isn't a problem.
You said "Then out of that, who has a genuine grievance? who will say it just to get a new phone? who will have applied excessive force to try it and is now seeking a new phone..." to which I responded "Why does it concern you if people get replacement handsets?".
There's a simple way Apple wouldn't have to cover replacement handsets...
while it's a flaw the guy interviewed for techgeek or some other "geek" site was about 25 stone so no wonder it bent 
Hey fatty looked in the mirror at your ass recently anything you put in your back pocket is gonna break mate....
Hey fatty looked in the mirror at your ass recently anything you put in your back pocket is gonna break mate....
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So how do you make a valid point without getting labelled as jumping on a bandwagon?
Who's said you shouldn't ever buy Apple products again? I can be critical of Apple while at the same time acknowledging they're among the very best in areas such as after sales support.
Anyway I agree with you but that's why I think the issue should be given more consideration than being brushed off as another gate gate.
Porsche suffered fires in 0.25% of their 911 GT3's before a recall, Apple suffer a problem so far in less than 0.0001% and its the internets bigger problem ever!
Was that problem in the first week of sales for Porsche too?
Interesting reading, I would be interested to know a theory on why it appears to affect 6+s more than 6. It can't just be the size as it isn't vastly different.
Exactly that, make a valid well reasoned point and it is fine. Some people are making 100% definitive comments (both for and against) but at this time we can only speak in possibilities, there may be, it looks like, probably is, might be ..... et al.
My comment was in response to yours but I wasn't directing it at you. It was a flippant remark but do I think this has been used by some people to justify their dislike of all things Apple.
I agree
Was that problem in the first week of sales for Porsche too?
I have no idea, it was just the last recall I can remember and could find figures for number affected against number sold. My point still stands though that apart one comment by Clarkson on Top Gear and a few articles about it nothing much was said even though, as a percetage, it affected more cars then bendgate has phones.
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If that is the case then you best not take any medicine.
Maybe complaints is not the best measurement and we should use incidences... Either way, it can't be a design flaw if it occurs in so few handsets (in the grand scheme of things) - The grey scale I talked about earlier will change it from manufacturing flaw to design flaw but only if there is a statistically significant number of handsets that suffer from the fault/flaw.
I still don't get what your trying to get at
I made a comment, that is all. I was merely stating that you will have some people jumping on the bandwagon to get a new handset (some of whom will deliberately try and bend their phone). Ultimately it doesn't concern me what other people do, if thats what you want me to say? What I think is interesting, is IF apple release a statement stating that there is a flaw in design, will this be replaceable under 1) warranty and 2) EU law in the second year after purchase (because the fault is observable at purchase).
You got to love this thread, it contains almost zero actual Apple fanboys and about fifty haters just jabbing in elbows with a smiley. It really is bizarre.
Someone can literally say "I don't think there's been many official complaints" and the pitch forks come out as they're burned on an Apple fanboy stake.
Someone can literally say "I don't think there's been many official complaints" and the pitch forks come out as they're burned on an Apple fanboy stake.
Deleted member 651465
Deleted member 651465
Most of what I've seen is hyperbole.. The same 4 pictures doing the rounds and a load of "I have a problem..." posts with no hard picture evidence. Anyone can log in and create an account to post and fuel the fire, so I'm dubious.
If the phone is bent when you buy it, Apple will replace it as a manufacturing defect. If it bends under normal use then they'll replace it under warranty. The fact that one guy bent a phone with his hands proves nothing.
Look at the link http://iphone.appleinsider.com/arti...one-test-facility-to-address-bendgate-dust-up
I'm confident I could snap almost any phone if I wanted to. It's laughable to suggest they don't test hardware for this sort of basic stress test stuff. That doesn't concern me. What concerns me is when I hear reports that they're bending from being in a pocket, but to be honest I don't believe that.
Maybe if you wear tight jeans and do a few hundred sumo squats, but until someone on this forum posts a "real world" example I'm calling shenanigans.
Id love to be proved wrong and for Apple to come out and state there is a fault batch, but this thing is always going to happen because of how antennagate took off. The media love a good story and the chance to whip up a frenzy, so I wouldn't be surprised if next year there's another fault doing the rounds.
Bottom line is: you're covered under EU law and the warranty. If you notice an issue, speak to Apple. Same as any other product launch.
If the phone is bent when you buy it, Apple will replace it as a manufacturing defect. If it bends under normal use then they'll replace it under warranty. The fact that one guy bent a phone with his hands proves nothing.
Look at the link http://iphone.appleinsider.com/arti...one-test-facility-to-address-bendgate-dust-up
I'm confident I could snap almost any phone if I wanted to. It's laughable to suggest they don't test hardware for this sort of basic stress test stuff. That doesn't concern me. What concerns me is when I hear reports that they're bending from being in a pocket, but to be honest I don't believe that.
Maybe if you wear tight jeans and do a few hundred sumo squats, but until someone on this forum posts a "real world" example I'm calling shenanigans.
Id love to be proved wrong and for Apple to come out and state there is a fault batch, but this thing is always going to happen because of how antennagate took off. The media love a good story and the chance to whip up a frenzy, so I wouldn't be surprised if next year there's another fault doing the rounds.
Bottom line is: you're covered under EU law and the warranty. If you notice an issue, speak to Apple. Same as any other product launch.
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Indeed. As SquareTrade said in the link I posted further up the page, the only member of their team that managed to bend the phone was a guy who could bench 180kg+. Overall they found the 6/6 Plus sturdy devices in their testing (and their site is based around durability testing of phones).
SquareTrade are obviously iSheep! Baaaa.
If my £600 phone bent through no fault of my own I would expect apple to replace it
As soon as someone starts trotting out the 'fanboy' line on here you know they have nothing of value to add.
Remember when all those idiots were holding the iPhone 4 wrong causing the signal to drop?
Wow, they must have rock bottom standards of strength.
Soldato
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How short peoples memories are... there is drama like this EVERY SINGLE TIME a new iPhone comes out. There was even a 'bendgate' for the iPhone 5.
Suddenly, tens of millions of people have their new phone all at once, there are going to be issues from manufacture (like every single other product, ever) or misuse. There are also more people each time who go out of their way to drop and damage their phones to extremes for YouTube views. A tiny number may even have an agenda in doing so; you all see how this forum gets - people who have never owned an Apple product come to spend hours frothing at the mouth.
This will be forgotten shortly and Apple will (as ever) replace any faulty phones.
Suddenly, tens of millions of people have their new phone all at once, there are going to be issues from manufacture (like every single other product, ever) or misuse. There are also more people each time who go out of their way to drop and damage their phones to extremes for YouTube views. A tiny number may even have an agenda in doing so; you all see how this forum gets - people who have never owned an Apple product come to spend hours frothing at the mouth.
This will be forgotten shortly and Apple will (as ever) replace any faulty phones.
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Time for Mythbusters!
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The video is pointless - metal bends when force is applied in physics shocker....
If this occurs with everyday use then it become an issue... Until then, this is just some guy drumming up more traffic for his site