Is future totalitarian?

Enkore

Enkore

Enkore

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Given the Covid pandemic it seems like we discovered a major hole in the western societies armour. It is individualism exasperated by capitalist market ideology. The ultimate package of everyone for themselves and trying to make profit off anything - regardless of consequences on wider scale.

We see the combination everywhere we look, it seems like USA is really shining through. A president who will gaslight whole nation just to serve individualistic goals. A population that refuses to be even mildly inconvenienced by wearing a mask to protect others.

Companies that put profits before well being of population. Months into pandemic we're still low on PPE. Many refused to change output capacities thinking that it would not be monetarily beneficial. If you look at US economic response, they are basically pumping stock market to make it seem everything is great. Issue is that lower/middle class barely benefit from this - apart from retirement plans which a minority of Americans have. The rich are getting their pocket lined once again, the others will foot the bill.

Given the trend of global warming, anti-biotic resistance (again due to need to squeeze every penny, dumping it into all food sources). This is one of many diseases or other cataclysmic diseases headed our way.

If we do not adapt into a more 'socialist' society which puts well being of ALL people in the nation above short term individual goals. We are doomed to be one day taken over by totalitarian regimes like what China is. They are a lot more efficient in these events, through horror means.

We can easily combine democracy with being more socialist orientated, capitalism and short term goal individualism will possibly lead us to disaster. Where we will be over-taken or left vounrable to totalitarian regimes.
 
Yes, the future is totalitarian, run by corporations like Google, Amazon and Apple, while we few run underground hacking operations and jack in to surf the matrix, smuggling data using hard drives built into our heads, while Android softly dreams of electric sheep.
You all wanted Cyberpunk 2077 to be really immersive, right? You're about to get that wish!!
 
There's nothing wrong with capitalism - only the version that we've implemented, which I would say is closer to socialism in some ways (not allowing businesses to fail for example, and manipulating the money supply as you mentioned).
 
R.P.L said:
There's nothing wrong with capitalism - only the version that we've implemented, which I would say is closer to socialism in some ways (not allowing businesses to fail for example, and manipulating the money supply as you mentioned).
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Well capitalism in its current shape or form eventually will not lead to anything good. Its ultimate goal is to become a monopoly, squeeze as much profit from product at most humanely possible little cost. The wealth would simply move up and create even greater gap. So much so that it will fall in on itself sooner or later. Think of Amazon, it will soon at this rate became the monopoly in internet shopping, the wealth they have is amazing - now look at their working conditions. Look at their business practices when they went after publishers and wrecked them. Soon Amazon will be the only place to work at - I'm sure they'll not raise wages for their employees.

The nature of capitalism we're in is that a poor product can still succeed due to cash reserves and market manipulations. Company A could spend 1 billion and have superior product. Company B spent 1 billion lobbying politicians and has crap product. Company B wins because of favourable laws that it got. I mean capitalism would work if we replace capital in sense of money to in sense of people. Thats pretty much socialism, investing in capital of the people to make better products etc. Distributing wealth to lower levels so they can spend more and enrich these companies rather than being hoarded by the few individuals that do not spend it.
 
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how is this anything new? Capitalism has lead the western world pretty much since WW2 (if not since the invention of fire). As soon as someone suggests helping out the lesser man they get branded socialist or communist (especially in the States), like it's a bad thing (and is some kind of unpatriotic alliance with Russia/China). I can remember reading complaints against Obamacare from people actually on it, wtf!?! I understand the "dream" of getting rich (through hard work, clever invention, etc) but why does that require stepping on those around you and not support the community (through paying taxes, providing healthcare, etc.)?
 
R.P.L said:
There's nothing wrong with capitalism - only the version that we've implemented, which I would say is closer to socialism in some ways (not allowing businesses to fail for example, and manipulating the money supply as you mentioned).
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I think that you could say the same about Communism - great in theory, awful in practice :(

It would be nice to think that "not allowing businesses to fail" was done for the good of Society at large - I suspect that in practice, all too often it is done to protect "wealth".

The big problem with "Socialism" is that it cannot cope with selfishness and greed.
 
Enkore said:
Well capitalism in its current shape or form eventually will not lead to anything good. Its ultimate goal is to become a monopoly, squeeze as much profit from product at most humanely possible little cost. The wealth would simply move up and create even greater gap. So much so that it will fall in on itself sooner or later. Think of Amazon, it will soon at this rate became the monopoly in internet shopping, the wealth they have is amazing - now look at their working conditions. Look at their business practices when they went after publishers and wrecked them. Soon Amazon will be the only place to work at - I'm sure they'll not raise wages for their employees.

The nature of capitalism we're in is that a poor product can still succeed due to cash reserves and market manipulations. Company A could spend 1 billion and have superior product. Company B spent 1 billion lobbying politicians and has crap product. Company B wins because of favourable laws that it got. I mean capitalism would work if we replace capital in sense of money to in sense of people. Thats pretty much socialism, investing in capital of the people to make better products etc. Distributing wealth to lower levels so they can spend more and enrich these companies rather than being hoarded by the few individuals that do not spend it.
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Indeed - I think we're agreeing here.

DereksDontRun said:
how is this anything new? Capitalism has lead the western world pretty much since WW2 (if not since the invention of fire). As soon as someone suggests helping out the lesser man they get branded socialist or communist (especially in the States), like it's a bad thing (and is some kind of unpatriotic alliance with Russia/China). I can remember reading complaints against Obamacare from people actually on it, wtf!?! I understand the "dream" of getting rich (through hard work, clever invention, etc) but why does that require stepping on those around you and not support the community (through paying taxes, providing healthcare, etc.)?
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I don't think many people are really advocating a purely capitalist system with no state (not anyone worth listening to anyway). The issue that I have is when people point to our current situation and say "capitalism's broken, and the answer is socialism". I've been very critical of how we've run our economy for a while now, but I still believe very much in the free market.
 
R.P.L said:
Indeed - I think we're agreeing here.



I don't think many people are really advocating a purely capitalist system with no state (not anyone worth listening to anyway). The issue that I have is when people point to our current situation and say "capitalism's broken, and the answer is socialism". I've been very critical of how we've run our economy for a while now, but I still believe very much in the free market.
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I actually think socialism is basically capitalism in its healthy shape and form. Socialism does not eradicate free market - you're thinking communism I guess? Socialism puts emphasis on the people over financial capital. Its essentially capitalism where capital (money) is replaced by capital (people). Which is honestly is correct way to do things. Companies that have most capital (in sense of people, knowledge etc) will produce the best products. Free education, healthcare only stimulates and promotes growth of capital (people) to then push economy forward.

The major backlash you see against this way of thinking just further shows the ugly face of current capitalism. The current heavyweights of capital (money) will throw their money to preserve themselves since they have no desire to then need to compete in future. And they are succesful in that sense which is again another downside. They represent an overall worse system and yet due to capital are able to brain wash people to believe that socialism is bad for them somehow.

They are doing exactly what true capitalist system where money is key is set up to do. They will use all their current capital to shut down something thats better in order to preserve their current capital.
 
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Enkore said:
Given the Covid pandemic it seems like we discovered a major hole in the western societies armour. It is individualism exasperated by capitalist market ideology. The ultimate package of everyone for themselves and trying to make profit off anything - regardless of consequences on wider scale.

We see the combination everywhere we look, it seems like USA is really shining through. A president who will gaslight whole nation just to serve individualistic goals. A population that refuses to be even mildly inconvenienced by wearing a mask to protect others.

Companies that put profits before well being of population. Months into pandemic we're still low on PPE. Many refused to change output capacities thinking that it would not be monetarily beneficial. If you look at US economic response, they are basically pumping stock market to make it seem everything is great. Issue is that lower/middle class barely benefit from this - apart from retirement plans which a minority of Americans have. The rich are getting their pocket lined once again, the others will foot the bill.

Given the trend of global warming, anti-biotic resistance (again due to need to squeeze every penny, dumping it into all food sources). This is one of many diseases or other cataclysmic diseases headed our way.

If we do not adapt into a more 'socialist' society which puts well being of ALL people in the nation above short term individual goals. We are doomed to be one day taken over by totalitarian regimes like what China is. They are a lot more efficient in these events, through horror means.

We can easily combine democracy with being more socialist orientated, capitalism and short term goal individualism will possibly lead us to disaster. Where we will be over-taken or left vounrable to totalitarian regimes.
Click to expand...

It's a crappy form of capitalism, where the focus is so on the near term that they can't do anything that will be beneficial long term. Predatory.
 
Enkore said:
I actually think socialism is basically capitalism in its healthy shape and form. Socialism does not eradicate free market - you're thinking communism I guess? Socialism puts emphasis on the people over financial capital. Its essentially capitalism where capital (money) is replaced by capital (people). Which is honestly is correct way to do things. Companies that have most capital (in sense of people, knowledge etc) will produce the best products. Free education, healthcare only stimulates and promotes growth of capital (people) to then push economy forward.
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This is the kind of socialism I could get behind.
 
Enkore said:
I actually think socialism is basically capitalism in its healthy shape and form. Socialism does not eradicate free market - you're thinking communism I guess? Socialism puts emphasis on the people over financial capital. Its essentially capitalism where capital (money) is replaced by capital (people). Which is honestly is correct way to do things. Companies that have most capital (in sense of people, knowledge etc) will produce the best products. Free education, healthcare only stimulates and promotes growth of capital (people) to then push economy forward.
Click to expand...

Well that's a fundamental issue I have with socialism. As you say, it seems like it should basically be a free market where everyone wants to help each other. Maybe you can see where the problem is here - you need everyone to want to help each other. Now there is another way to do it, which is to hold a gun to everyone's head (metaphorically or literally) and that seems to be how these things end up given the historical examples that I can think of (i.e. communism). The fact that a utopian society where no one acts selfishly suggests to me that it's a pipe dream. I do believe firmly that when push comes to shove, people are selfish and will look after themselves.
The great thing about capitalism and the free market is that it means that everyone has a choice to do what they want as long as they can sell it to someone. What about people who want to do something else? Well to be blunt, that's their problem. I don't tend to spend money on things I don't want, and I don't expect anyone to give me money except as part of a bilateral agreement.
 
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