Is the snake oil slowly retreating from the Hi-Fi industry?

Soldato
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These are the tests i'll be doing. ...
I will show all the RMAA graphs with tests overlapped and summary of results.

I would suggest only changing one item between tests.

T1 - test 3 configuration with Supplied cables, no conditioner etc.
T2 - test 3 configuration but change only the interconnect
T3 - test 3 configuration (ie no interconnect change) but change the mains cable.

That would give you a reference then demonstrate supplemental tests changing only one component. Next I would do some incremental tests:

T4 - test 3 configuration changing to wattgate only (no power cord change from supplied) as a baseline - comparable to T1/T2/T3.
T5 - test 3 configuration changing the wattgate and the power supply cord only
T6 - test 3 configuration changing the wattgate, the power supply cord and interconnect.

Lastly I would perform:
T7 - test 3 configuration changing the wattgate, the power supply cord, the interconnect and adding the supply conditioner.
T8 - test 3 configuration changing only the supply conditioner (ie testing the seasonic with the supply conditioner)

I think that would demonstrate the effect of the component changes better.

For each test you will need to record the input at the mains as a reference, the input signal and the amplified signal.

As it stands I think your tests don't isolate changes w.r.t the component you wish to demonstrate.
 
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Soldato
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Are these tests supposed to be comparative? You're changing multiple components between tests.

No i'm grouping tests together.

All that's important is I show interconnects, mains cables and mains conditioning is improvement, you will see the totality of the benefits.
 
Soldato
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I would suggest only changing one item between tests.

It's to much work to test individual.

My aim to to show better interconnects, cables, mains conditioning make a difference. Remember as my estimate 90% of the OCUK forum believe these things make no difference. By grouping all the good items into Test 1 it will show the combined improvement. To use a war term, i'm aiming for 'shock and awe' by putting all the good components together into one test.
 
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Soldato
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Here's a before and after from non-tuned LC filter for my little amp:

3IElKmT.png

You can see the switching noise from the SMPS at the top and the output below in blue. Not perfect but better.

Here's the SMPS DC output - this is 10K centre with 50kHz/horizontal division:
NydDeHj.png

And after the filter:
BCrIsIg.png

So you can see the improvement.

Although the 1-20kHz is within the first 1/2 division, you can see the noise further up the spectra. The issue with noise further up is that is causes issues.

I have bode plotting on this too but I need to get the software AWG working on the PI first. Not brilliant bit works none-the-less.

It's that level of test results you want to be able to give. So the bode plot will be good to see - use the PC->sound card DAC->cable->ADC sound card -> PC. Test without and then test with the interconnect between.

Your sound card should show a better resolution - probably 24bit. Most oscilloscopes are 8bit. I want to build a spectrum analyser with 24bit using a TI card, that maxes out at 1MSPS at 24bit but has a really good noise floor, including being able todo differential, down in the -120-140dBV. I just can't afford £150-180 on a ADC at the moment!
 
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Soldato
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It's to much work to test individual.

My aim to to show better interconnects, cables, mains conditioning make a difference. Remember as my estimate 90% of the OCUK forum believe these things make no difference. By grouping all the good items into Test 1 it will show the combined improvement. To use a war term, i'm aiming for 'shock and awe' by putting all the good components together into one test.

well the incremental will show the improvement. Shock and awe - well just show the first test with everything running. However that is your system and someone else will have a completely different setup. Hence showing steps shows how it can improve their system.
 
Soldato
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It's that level of test results you want to be able to give. So the bode plot will be good to see - use the PC->sound card DAC->cable->ADC sound card -> PC. Test without and then test with the interconnect between.

I already did some testing just using one card, it's a few pages back on this thread.

The issue, on the Asus Essence cards, when testing internally i'm not sure how far into the analogue stages it goes. To get around this I thought I would use 2 cards then i'm guaranteed to show the entire analogue stage.

I might do some individual testing, it depends if people are interested in what items do what and the order of importance.

Your noise testing looks interesting, but I don't have any equipment like that. I only have the RMAA software and my sound cards.
 
Associate
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the last 6 ft of copper can make a massive difference, in certain cases. E. G. The last 6 ft of copper for me is now DC so that is a difference to the miles of aluminium that came to me as AC.
I'm not an electronics expert but things like this do interest me:

https://youtu.be/bHIhgxav9LY

I'm not even sure if this proves the cables make a difference or even goes against it but when I obtain my PhD (joke) in electrical engineering then I will weigh in on the subject!

That video from Veritasium has several mistakes, his final answer is certainly wrong. Watch this video that explains it from someone who actually understands this stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iph500cPK28 (his videos are generally really good for understanding electromagnetism).

The last 6ft of copper makes no difference whatsoever, regardless of whether it is carrying DC or AC. If it is thick enough for the current required, and has low-ish capacitance and inductance further improvements will have no effect on the output from the speakers. I know someone will come along with the usual "unless you have listened on £50k system with these expensive cables I own then you don't know!". Think about this, if I tell you pigs can fly do you need to personally throw a pig to find out if it's actually possible? Of course not. By the same token, with a little knowledge of electromagnetism it becomes rather obvious that changing the last 6ft of a hundred mile conductor will have no effect.

I've seen similar arguements about power conditioners and expensive speaker cables and digital interconnects (analogue interconnects are another story, proper shielding is required but doesn't need to be particularly expensive).

@JasonM I have seen so many tests and experiments where good quality oscilloscopes have been used to compare the AC input or amplifier output with and without power conditioners or fancy cables or similar. And yes there is usually a small difference in the noise/distortion as measured by the oscilloscope, and the author concludes these products are not snake oil. What is never mentioned is that the amount of noise/distortion reduction is an order of magnitude lower than the distortion normally introduced by even the best loudspeakers.

The ONLY way to prove that conditioners/cables/whatever actually make a difference is to get a calibrated measurement microphone (UMIK-1 is enough) and measure the sound output from the speakers. If significant differences can by shown by objective measurement of the acoustic waves (not electrical) then I will change my tune. But I've been saying this for nearly a decade on various forums and it hasn't happened yet.
 
Soldato
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Not with the DAC your using.

Left manufactures specs for your Neoteck DAC, Right RMAA from my Asus ST sound card.

AM-JKLWgpcto8e5U6zU1HreBdn9XYGz_vmAqf7W2YVHDlb_yf2Zyl-hNjZDVV1rx6jc4xDN0xvAMsXCZQHj6htfu_NZemwCP3P5BP6w02ekcKVKd2GbYoYBGpsR1PDbNc1RdkyL6rQakdkJHJpt_NfNukc2A=w690-h500-no

One thing to note here is that the ratings are dB vs dBA (A weighted, or human hearing weighted - mainly between 1-4kHz). This is a good example: difference-between-db-dba think of the measurements weighted, compared to dB which aren't so simply comparing them without doing the maths is incorrect. I've not found a test where a calibrated wave form generator is used and measured in parallel with a spectrum analyser and the sound card. So perhaps I'll explain why some of this is moot. To convert dBA to dB you need to know what you're listing to as its frequency dependant.

I prefer dBV to consumer 1 volt reference. A lest significant bit for 24bit is ~59 nanovolt or 0.000059mV. That equates to -144dB dynamic range for 24bits. Hence the noise level (depending on the computer EMI) is going to be above the -144dB. So how is the noise floor below the dynamic range?

Human hearing A weighting (dBA) with noise shaping allows manufacturers to really mess with the numbers - you can be noisy as hell at low or high frequency but it will be blissfully low noise according to the dBA rating. dBA depends on the frequency being used to measure. Sneaky..

Intermodulation is the impact of your noise/harmonics on the sound itself during amplification - both as a product of the amplification and as the input into the amplification. Basically how much your sound is messed up by the noise/harmonics messing with the amplification process. A tube amp will be worse here. In the realworld any noise or harmonics OUTSIDE of the dBA weighting frequency range also plays a part in this figure unless they're only processing post dBA..
Solid state often use better active filters (opamp based for example) for harder cut offs.

I'll also highlight the stereo cross talk being below the 24bit range. How can you correctly report a measurement below your sampling bit resolution? The maths probably subtracts one channel from the other and I would hope that the floating point here is 64bit.. so this feels like a floating point conversion rounding error. I'd need to see the code.. or confirmation it's using 64bit (you'd assume it is as the programme supports 32bit?)

The DAC figures, although looking worse, provide more information w.r.t to the measurements than that of the Asus.

Also is the THD from the dBA figures? Which means the THD is also weighted and filtered.

TL;DR - Yes dBA is weighted for the perception of human hearing (of a child) as an end sound for a specific set of sounds, it shows you need to be careful in how you use it. Manufacturers are sneaky..

Lastly when you do your FFTs - ensure you document what windowing you're using. This shows how you're dealing with spectral leakage and this affects the figures resulting from the testing.
 
Soldato
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The ONLY way to prove that conditioners/cables/whatever actually make a difference is to get a calibrated measurement microphone (UMIK-1 is enough) and measure the sound output from the speakers. If significant differences can by shown by objective measurement of the acoustic waves (not electrical) then I will change my tune. But I've been saying this for nearly a decade on various forums and it hasn't happened yet.

Yep. I'd agree with that.

Amp designers really compare IN vs OUT electrically. Which means very little until you have your combination of components in your room at the point of listening. A calibrated microphone will give you that - with the usual caveats of microphones vs individual shapes of ears.

Electically shows what could possibly be. However you'd be shocked what speakers do to sound.
 
Associate
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Yep. I'd agree with that.

Amp designers really compare IN vs OUT electrically. Which means very little until you have your combination of components in your room at the point of listening. A calibrated microphone will give you that - with the usual caveats of microphones vs individual shapes of ears.

Electically shows what could possibly be. However you'd be shocked what speakers do to sound.

My point exactly. And why do you think nobody measures this way? Maybe it just didn't occur to them? ;)


The guy explains the results he got pretty well, those results confirm exactly what Mehdi (Electroboom) said in the video I linked to. If you know what you're looking for on the oscilloscope, skip to 7:27 in the AlphaPheonix video, the results speak for themselves.
 
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