Is Vegetarianism logically inconsistent?

Manure isn't a by-product of the meat industry, it isn't something that's left over after the animal has been killed and processed is it?

That's the way I see it anyway.

Well it is, and it's produced throughout the process of raising the cattle to be turned killed and it certainly doesn't just disappear when the animal is killed.

If there was a much smaller meat industry there would be much much less manure/fertiliser etc. Having said that, I don't think it's a real issue when it comes to vegetarianism anyway as I've always seen them to be against the meat itself and any product produced for consumption from the animal itself, rather than any products linked to the animals.

7 posts + question like this (sort of thing that invokes strong arguements from "both sides") = troll

Troll.

- Pea0n

No, this something that has sparked a debate/discussion, exactly what the forums are for. The only troll here is you for saying otherwise.
 
I am a vegan, for a very simple reason.

1. Animals are not property and we have no right to subordinate and dominate for our own ends.

Therefore, I refuse to eat eggs and dairy since the latter involves life long enslavement and the former involves killing every male chick (approx half of all chicks).

Therefore I dont see how anyone can be a vegetarian for ethical reasons.

I'm interested to see how all your vegetarians out there view it, why are you a vegetarian?

Thanks

Pfft, I'm a Fruitarian. We believe that fruits and vegetables have feelings so we think cooking is cruel. We only eat things that have actually fallen off a tree or bush - that are, in fact, dead already. Anything which has been 'picked' has been murdered.
 
Yes.



Manure isn't a by-product of the meat industry, it isn't something that's left over after the animal has been killed and processed like gelatine, skin etc is it?

That's the way I see it anyway.

Fair enough, depends entirely on the by-product definition used then. I would argue that a by-product is any product produced from livestock which isn't the primary product. Meat being the primary. Gelatine, skin, marrow, manure, and others are all produced from the "enslavement" (as the OP put it, I don't agree with that) of animals and are a by product. Because of this I wouldn't have thought that a veggy would be happy to eat a product that had been grown thanks to the "enslavement" of animals.
But, like everything - people differ in definitions, no one is either right or wrong.
 
Pfft, I'm a Fruitarian. We believe that fruits and vegetables have feelings so we think cooking is cruel. We only eat things that have actually fallen off a tree or bush - that are, in fact, dead already. Anything which has been 'picked' has been murdered.

I honestly don't understand this train of thought. Most vegetables I can think of need to be 'picked' and don't 'fall from a tree', so you're murdering them too despite them having feelings? :confused:

For example...carrots...pulling them up from the ground (if they have feelings etc.) would constitute murder surely?
 
This is flawed logic. You can get most, if not all of these products without any cattle.

Its also flawed because several things are in the wrong list and some simply aren't accurate.

Many of the things are incredibly old, internal organs for instruments and tennis racquet strings, in the 1850's, yes, your average £20 Slazenger for the past 40 years has used synthetically made strings. Much of the list is old sources of things. Manure, I find it hard to believe its particularly economically viable to kill a cow to get the small amount of manure it hasn't evacuated yet, it might be a bit more productive to pick up the animals waste which is continually produced.

I think it would be hard to classify manure as a non vegetarian substance, nor one anyone would eat either, until cows can talk and we get surprised that they wanted to horde all their manure themselves and are upset about it, I think that ones probably ok ;)


I'm a vege, never much liked eating meat, I have no problem with subordinating anyone and find it hilarious that its deemed an innappropriate reason to eat meat. I think forced breeding, keeping a far higher population of animals than is required, in captivity, to be slaughtered is pretty disgusting and don't really want to be part of it.

Billions of humans on the planet are essentially subordinated( to Treat or regard as of lesser importance than something else), infact most of us feel that way about other humans, and I certainly do. I consider chavs much lower than me, I don't see that as a reason to breed(they do it well enough themselves) and then kill(ok maybe) and then eat(definately not) them.


The simple fact is, some animals eat meat, some don't, more do than don't, very few have opposeable thumbs, few have the inteligence/ability to grow food that would easily sustain them, let them live very healthily and not be required to eat meat.

The simple difference between us and most animals is our abilities and inteligence give us the CHOICE between eating meat, and not, most animals do not have that choice. Given the choice to make, I choose not to eat animals that were bred purely to be killed.

If I had no choice, the land wasn't producing plantlife and somehow a species of animal survived I'd eat them.

Survival of the fittest, anything goes, we haven't been in that situation for centuries now.

Don't really care if other people are vegetarian, or vegan, I mostly only care about hypocrisy and preachyness of people trying to impose their will on mine.

We shouldn't subordinate animals though, as a reason?

Its illogical to not think yourself better than, a pig, errm, we generally are from a evolutionary, inteligence and most general standards of what would be better or worse.

However, in much the same way I consider myself better than a chav, more inteligent than someone with down syndrome, I don't draw any link between thinking myself better, and deciding that makes it okay to EAT THEM.

SO how you've decided not eating meat has anything to do with considering yourself better/worse than animals makes no logical sense at all. One has nothing to do with the other, at all.
 
We most certainly have the right to use animals for our own ends. Evolution and the food chain says so. To think otherwise is to demonstrate your naivety. Animals may be cute and cuddly but at the end of the day they are property for mankind because they are not evolved to the degree that we are and thus cannot complain about it.

This is the way of the world and always will be.


On that basis anything weaker we should be allowed to dominate, which based on the human paradigm, is clearly false.
 
Because it's your own opinion that it causes YOU no negative effect on YOUR life. Without meat, my life would be dramatically effected in a negative way as I love meat, food and cooking.
Likewise, without a cheese sandwich and coffee with milk in it my life would be negatively effected as these are amongst my favourite things.
I need to eat meat because it brings me great amounts of pleasure which I don't wish to be devoid of.

I was mainly inferring no negative effects on your health, and tbh it would most probably improve most peoples health and extend their life expectancy while in turn lessoning the load on the NHS and hospitals around the world due the fact that heart disease is the number killer in the western hemisphere.

But that being said though that's an honest reply you gave and one that I respect from a meat eater, it's the only real truthful reason you have to eat meat imo, because you love the taste, plain and simple, regardless of the negative repercussions.
 
Having said that, I don't think it's a real issue when it comes to vegetarianism anyway as I've always seen them to be against the meat itself and any product produced for consumption from the animal itself, rather than any products linked to the animals.

Exactly, I'd think vegans are more concerned about the manure thing.
 
I honestly don't understand this train of thought. Most vegetables I can think of need to be 'picked' and don't 'fall from a tree', so you're murdering them too despite them having feelings? :confused:

For example...carrots...pulling them up from the ground (if they have feelings etc.) would constitute murder surely?

It was a joke mate, it's a quote from the movie 'Notting Hill' taking the wee-wee out of vegetarians. ;)

I'm a confirmed carnivore, I have eaten steaks raw on occasion. :)
 
In case anyone is interested in how producing eggs kills a lot of animals it is because all male chicks that are born in the process are killed immediately. Its sad and upsetting to watch; they are slowly gassed.

I am not sure of the reasons exactly for why they are not later used for meat but I think it is probably related to the idea that egg producers and meat producers are not the same peolpe and that the cost of a meat producer to buy a male chick from an egg producer is presumably in excess of the cost to create their own.
 
I was mainly inferring no negative effects on your health, and tbh it would most probably improve most peoples health and extend their life expectancy while in turn lessoning the load on the NHS and hospitals around the world due the fact that heart disease is the number killer in the western hemisphere.

But that being said though that's an honest reply you gave and one that I respect from a meat eater, it's the only real truthful reason you have to eat meat imo, because you love the taste, plain and simple, regardless of the negative repercussions.

I love the taste of many meat products which is why I eat them as well. But meat is also good for you, providing you with vitamins and minerals etc. so long as you don't cook it in something like lard etc.

For me the good for you stuff is just an added benefit, it all smells and tastes good and that's what I love about it and why I eat it, along with products such as eggs and cheese. Both brilliant products that I'd not be able to do without. :)

Exactly, I'd think vegans are more concerned about the manure thing.

In honesty I suspect it's something that is glossed over by everyone, regardless of what we eat, it is needed to produce food/aid production of food.

It was a joke mate, it's a quote from the movie 'Notting Hill' taking the wee-wee out of vegetarians. ;)

I'm a confirmed carnivore, I have eaten steaks raw on occasion. :)

Ah ok. Fail on my part...I'm sure there are people like that though and would love to hear their response to my question.

In case anyone is interested in how producing eggs kills a lot of animals it is because all male chicks that are born in the process are killed immediately. Its sad and upsetting to watch; they are slowly gassed.

I am not sure of the reasons exactly for why they are not later used for meat but I think it is probably related to the idea that egg producers and meat producers are not the same peolpe and that the cost of a meat producer to buy a male chick from an egg producer is presumably in excess of the cost to create their own.

As has been stated...only in certain circumstances. My mother raises chickens for eggs. They are free range and run around with the males quite happily. If she get a male from a hatch then it is kept, either fattened up and turned into a roast or just left to run around with the females until it passes on it's own.

Different chickens bode well for meat and eggs...some are brilliant layers but absolutely rubbish for meat. It's often the case with the chickens in supermarkets that they will indeed have been female because as I understand it they gain weight and so meat a lot easier than the males do.
 
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I'll eat what I want to eat, you eat what you want to eat?

But if you say "Nerrrrrr, meat is bad etc" I will kill you, cook you, bit of pepper and eat you.
 
I love the taste of many meat products which is why I eat them as well. But meat is also good for you, providing you with vitamins and minerals etc. so long as you don't cook it in something like lard etc.

For me the good for you stuff is just an added benefit, it all smells and tastes good and that's what I love about it and why I eat it, along with products such as eggs and cheese. Both brilliant products that I'd not be able to do without. :)

.

I agree, meat as part of a healthy diet can be good for you as well, and tasty, but my point is it's not needed for you to live a healthy life, that being the case it boils down to taste, just because people love the taste of meat we have the Amazon Rain forest being chopped down by hundreds of acres everyday for soya crops for animal feed, pollution by an unprecedented level, people over indulging in meat causing heart disease at an also unprecedented level, and we are not even touching on animal cruelty yet, the list goes on.

All because people enjoy the taste of meat, I just don't see any real beneficial reasons for it on a 'mass scale', I understand that in some places it still may be a more practical source-able food which is understandable, I don't condemn that at all, but in a society where we can easily grow vegetables and survive healthily on a vegetarian diet I just don't see the point other than to save jobs and make money obviously.
 
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I was mainly inferring no negative effects on your health, and tbh it would most probably improve most peoples health and extend their life expectancy while in turn lessoning the load on the NHS and hospitals around the world due the fact that heart disease is the number killer in the western hemisphere.

But that being said though that's an honest reply you gave and one that I respect from a meat eater, it's the only real truthful reason you have to eat meat imo, because you love the taste, plain and simple, regardless of the negative repercussions.

I assume you're speaking about the whole cholesterol and saturated fat issue? As long as you're not eating buckets of processed food (as I do not) and keeping an eye on your diet then a omnivoure is as health as a vegetarian. Fish, chicken and poultry have been found to decrease the risk of death.
I don't think ruling out (or including) any one particular food group is going to have that much of an effect. We should be concentrating on eating a balanced and health diet. If you do not include red meat because of that then that's fine as long as you are ensuring that you are getting the nutrients and vitamins found in large quantities within red meat. Likewise, if someone (such as myself) chooses to eat large quantities of meat then they would be well advised to monitor their diet and lifestyle and take measures to ensure that their cholesterol and whatnot is kept in check.
I don't do this, but I do eat a very healthy diet and make sure that I don't put too much crap in my body.
There is an argument that a higher life expectancy will increase NHS spending so I'd be careful when bringing that one out.

Thanks for the acceptance of my response, I too respect anyone's decision as long as they are able to explain their reasons to me and not push their views on me too much. I don't take your health risk argument as factually black and white as you seem to be suggesting.

Your above post explains your view in more detail, and shows you are also very concerned about the environmental effects of meat eating and not just the health risks. Again, I disagree with you by and large but I'm not a fan of environmental debates.
 
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In case anyone is interested in how producing eggs kills a lot of animals it is because all male chicks that are born in the process are killed immediately. Its sad and upsetting to watch; they are slowly gassed.

Sorry, I'm obviously being a bit dim - if they're eggs, then they aren't hatched surely? Like I say, apologies if I'm being a bit dim - but am I missing something obvious here?
 
Seems my reply has gone ignored, as per usual...

I didn't see it in honesty but will provide my thoughts on what you've said.

The fact there is more food than the world needs does not stop the fact there are people starving round the globe and loads of food is going to waste. This happens with vegetables as well as meat.

The transportation of meat products (be that cattle or steaks) can't surely have that big an effect on pollution? Removing meat from everyone's diets (were it possible to just make everyone a vegetarian at the flick of a switch) would just massively increase the transportation of vegetables to similar end results to what is currently happening would it not?
About all you'd gain would be less methane etc. from animals as there would be less of them.
 
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