ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

[RDM]

There is nothing wrong in the arbitration system, I can use it, lots of people can use it religious or not. I see nothing wrong in saying to people of other cultures you can resolve civil issues in your own way which does not break or transcend the actual law of the land

In an ideal world I would agree, the problem comes, and this isn't limited to just Sharia courts, when social pressure is applied to effectively force people to use the courts as courts of arbitration. It may be disadvantageous in some circumstances to use a Sharia court but because family, friends and the wider social environment applies pressure to use it people can be unfairly treated.

 

[Freakbro]

In an ideal world I would agree, the problem comes, and this isn't limited to just Sharia courts, when social pressure is applied to effectively force people to use the courts as courts of arbitration. It may be disadvantageous in some circumstances to use a Sharia court but because family, friends and the wider social environment applies pressure to use it people can be unfairly treated.

I appreciate that and was trying to reply to Rob's post last night in the same vein but got distracted.

If the system of arbitration isn't working then lets look at the whole thing, has undue pressure affected Jews in the Beth Din? Which have been around for over a hundred years and I don't see people jumping up and down about these or is this just a Muslim issue in Sharia arbitration? or just that it's in vogue to denounce anything Islam at the moment.

Or is it the case that we should have more oversight of the arbitration system to make sure they aren't circumventing judicial law

 

[The Running Man]

I appreciate that and was trying to reply to Rob's post last night in the same vein but got distracted.

If the system of arbitration isn't working then lets look at the whole thing, has undue pressure affected Jews in the Beth Din? Which have been around for over a hundred years and I don't see people jumping up and down about these or is this just a Muslim issue in Sharia arbitration? or just that it's in vogue to denounce anything Islam at the moment.

Or is it the case that we should have more oversight of the arbitration system to make sure they aren't circumventing judicial law

You are forgetting social pressure of convention on women in a racist religion here.

You are forgetting that the number of Muslims has grown by 300% over the last few years, meaning many more people are suffering at the hands of this arbitration.

People tend to grow more concerned when a problem grows. It becomes more visible, it becomes more prevalent, it can no longer be hidden or ignored.

Like halal meat.

 

[Freakbro]

You are forgetting social pressure of convention on women in a racist religion here.

You are mixing your metaphors...

You are forgetting that the number of Muslims has grown by 300% over the last few years, meaning many more people are suffering at the hands of this arbitration.

If you can provide me with the data that shows the increase in suffering at the hands of arbitration then I will examine it, other than that it's just a bit of hyperbole I'm afraid...and 300% of a small number is still a small number, so just saying an increase of 300% is meaningless without context.

People tend to grow more concerned when a problem grows. It becomes more visible, it becomes more prevalent, it can no longer be hidden or ignored.

Like halal meat.

Peoples perception of a problem is regularly disproportionate to the actual level of threat of said problem, so I'm not really going with how people 'feel' about the issue.

 

[The Running Man]

You are mixing your metaphors...

If you can provide me with the data that shows the increase in suffering at the hands of arbitration then I will examine it, other than that it's just a bit of hyperbole I'm afraid...and 300% of a small number is still a small number, so just saying an increase of 300% is meaningless without context.



Peoples perception of a problem is regularly disproportionate to the actual level of threat of said problem, so I'm not really going with how people 'feel' about the issue.

I believe it is racist and sexist at its core. Unlike Christianity which says turn the other cheek, or that everyone can get in to heaven, the same cannot be said for Islam.

Muslim women across Britain are being systematically oppressed, abused and discriminated against by Sharia law courts that treat women as second-class citizens, according to a new report, which warns against the spiraling proliferation of Islamic tribunals in the United Kingdom.

The 40-page report, "A Parallel World: Confronting the Abuse of Many Muslim Women in Britain Today," was authored by Baroness Caroline Cox, a cross-bench member of the British House of Lords and one of the leading defenders of women's rights in the UK.

The report shows how the increasing influence of Sharia law in Britain today is undermining the fundamental principle that there must be equality for all British citizens under a single law of the land.

The Arbitration Act of 1996 allows parties to resolve certain civil disputes according to Sharia principles in such a way that the decision can be enforced in British courts.

According to the report, however, many Muslim bodies are using the Arbitration Act to support the claim that they are able to make legally binding decisions for members of the Muslim community, when in fact the law limits their role to that of being a mediator to help reach an agreement. "The mediator is not a judge or an arbitrator who imposes a decision," the report states.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5512/sharia-courts-muslim-women


Haitham al-Haddad is a British Sharia court judge, and sits on the board of advisors for the Islamic Sharia Council. Regarding the handling of domestic violence cases, he stated in an interview, "A man should not be questioned why he hit his wife, because this is something between them. Leave them alone. They can sort their matters among themselves." (Image source: Channel 4 News video screenshot)

As a result, Muslim women, who may lack knowledge of both the English language and their rights under British law, are often pressured by their families to use Sharia courts. These courts often coerce them to sign an agreement to abide by their decisions, which are imposed and viewed as legal judgments.

Worse yet, "Refusal to settle a dispute in a Sharia forum could lead to threats and intimidation, or being ostracized and labelled a disbeliever," the report states, and adds:

"There is a particular concern that women face pressure to withdraw allegations of domestic violence after they make them. Several women's groups say they are often reluctant to go to the authorities with women who have run away to escape violence because they cannot trust police officers within the community not to betray the girls to their abusing families."

The report shows that even in cases where Muslim tribunals work "in tandem" with police investigations, abused women often withdraw their complaints to the police, while Sharia judges let the husbands go unpunished.

Meanwhile, most Sharia courts, when dealing with divorce, do so only in a religious sense. They cannot grant civil divorce; they simply grant a religious divorce in accordance with Sharia law.

According to the report, in many cases this is all that is necessary for a "divorce" anyway; many Muslim women who identify themselves as being "married" are not in marriages that are legally recognized by British law. Although a nikah (an Islamic wedding ceremony) may have taken place, if the marriage is not officially registered, it is not valid in the eyes of civil law. The report states:

You could have found this yourself. Shame on you.

 

[Freakbro]

I believe it is racist and sexist at its core. Unlike Christianity which says turn the other cheek, or that everyone can get in to heaven, the same cannot be said for Islam.



http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5512/sharia-courts-muslim-women


Haitham al-Haddad is a British Sharia court judge, and sits on the board of advisors for the Islamic Sharia Council. Regarding the handling of domestic violence cases, he stated in an interview, "A man should not be questioned why he hit his wife, because this is something between them. Leave them alone. They can sort their matters among themselves." (Image source: Channel 4 News video screenshot)

I'm not sure how banning arbitration courts will solve this problem though? The women are already subjugated and unwilling/unable to go to the authorities, wouldn't this just drive things further underground?

It's obviously an issue that needs tackling but one I would imagine gets diluted over time, once the children have gone through our system, can speak english and are influenced by our culture of equality and the older generation die out.

But again, I see this as a failure of regulation and enforcement of the laws that are already in place rather than a failure of the whole arbitration system.

You could have found this yourself. Shame on you.

Don't be daft They way things work on a discussion forum is you have to provide your own evidence for things you say

 

[The Running Man]

I'm not sure how banning arbitration courts will solve this problem though? The women are already subjugated and unwilling/unable to go to the authorities, wouldn't this just drive things further underground?

It's obviously an issue that needs tackling but one I would imagine gets diluted over time, once the children have gone through our system, can speak english and are influenced by our culture of equality and the older generation die out.

But again, I see this as a failure of regulation and enforcement of the laws that are already in place rather than a failure of the whole arbitration system.


Don't be daft They way things work on a discussion forum is you have to provide your own evidence for things you say

No if you take a stand in a debate, I would expect you to have already researched both sides. Otherwise why are you saying it's all good, without even looking into it? That's the most retarded way to debate I have seen. Sure there could be things you've missed or I could be posturing new challenging hypothesis. But nope that was literally the first Google search return. So clearly you hadn't even looked into it at all.

It's a culture of failure. It's from the imams to the people on the street. They like the culture, they foster it, they use it to subjugate others.

My concern is why do we want people like this who we are warring against to move here? Why isn't action taken to stamp out any legitimacy that shariah in the uk might be perceived to have?

Why do people like you argue for it without considering the negativity that surrounds it?

None of it makes any sense.

 

[Freakbro]

No if you take a stand in a debate, I would expect you to have already researched both sides. Otherwise why are you saying it's all good, without even looking into it? That's the most retarded way to debate I have seen. Sure there could be things you've missed or I could be posturing new challenging hypothesis. But nope that was literally the first Google search return. So clearly you hadn't even looked into it at all.

It's a culture of failure. It's from the imams to the people on the street. They like the culture, they foster it, they use it to subjugate others.

My concern is why do we want people like this who we are warring against to move here? Why isn't action taken to stamp out any legitimacy that shariah in the uk might be perceived to have?

Why do people like you argue for it without considering the negativity that surrounds it?

None of it makes any sense.

Where have I said it's all good?

I'm agreeing there are issues that need to be tackled, but throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the way to do it.

If there is a disproportionate number of Sharia based arbitration courts that have serious issues, then you tackle that problem specifically. Why should the rest of us lose the facility if there are not the same problems within Beth Din or other arbitration courts.

 

[thep02]

If that's even possible with modern plumbed in bathrooms you've let the child get waay tooo dirty and want no NEED reporting to social services if not the police.

 

[ThestigGT999]

turkey helping moderate jihadists and isis (same thing)

 

[Amp34]

No if you take a stand in a debate, I would expect you to have already researched both sides. Otherwise why are you saying it's all good, without even looking into it? That's the most retarded way to debate I have seen. Sure there could be things you've missed or I could be posturing new challenging hypothesis. But nope that was literally the first Google search return. So clearly you hadn't even looked into it at all.

It's a culture of failure. It's from the imams to the people on the street. They like the culture, they foster it, they use it to subjugate others.

My concern is why do we want people like this who we are warring against to move here? Why isn't action taken to stamp out any legitimacy that shariah in the uk might be perceived to have?

Why do people like you argue for it without considering the negativity that surrounds it?

None of it makes any sense.

We are not fighting against Islam. We are fighting against Muslim extremists. There is a big difference there. There are 1.2billion Muslims in the world, the vast majority not part of any extremist group.

Your perception of Christianity is also warped by European Christianity, which is very different regarding rights for minorities (homosexuals as an example) relative to Christianity in other areas of the globe.

Unfortunately parts of many religions are not conducive to "modern" British society. British Christianity has just moved with British culture and as such is far more tolerated because it has been moulded by our society over hundreds of years.

Your concern for the plight of not stunning animals for religious reasons due to halal is touching, but nowhere do you mention the shechita (kosher meat). It's also a shame that the general humane treatment of animals doesn't get anywhere near as much passion as Halal slaughtering methods . If there was that much passion about the general humane treatment of farm animals then our slaughter (and rearing) systems would be very different to what they were now.

As it is the non stunning of a small proportion of animals slaughtered by halal methods is way down my particular list of "things to change about the farming and slaughtering of farm animals"

 

[bitslice]

We are not fighting against Islam. We are fighting against Muslim extremists. There is a big difference there.

No there isn't.

We have a moderate muslim community in the UK, a small percentage of those later became extreme.

Look at cells developing in a petri dish, eventually you'll see defects, this is normal.

 

[The Running Man]

We are not fighting against Islam. We are fighting against Muslim extremists. There is a big difference there. There are 1.2billion Muslims in the world, the vast majority not part of any extremist group.

Your perception of Christianity is also warped by European Christianity, which is very different regarding rights for minorities (homosexuals as an example) relative to Christianity in other areas of the globe.

Unfortunately parts of many religions are not conducive to "modern" British society. British Christianity has just moved with British culture and as such is far more tolerated because it has been moulded by our society over hundreds of years.

Your concern for the plight of not stunning animals for religious reasons due to halal is touching, but nowhere do you mention the shechita (kosher meat). It's also a shame that the general humane treatment of animals doesn't get anywhere near as much passion as Halal slaughtering methods . If there was that much passion about the general humane treatment of farm animals then our slaughter (and rearing) systems would be very different to what they were now.

As it is the non stunning of a small proportion of animals slaughtered by halal methods is way down my particular list of "things to change about the farming and slaughtering of farm animals"

you miss the part where school dinners and mass market meat from supermarkets is now halal...not kosher.

We are literally having Islamic practice rammed down our and our childrens throats.

Thoughts?

Every day we battle Islam, whether that's fighting Shariah courts. The Islamic brotherhood, Islamic despot leaders. Saudi Arabia.

Islam is an extreme religion. It seems to be intolerant in its message and deployment. Why are Islamic countries some of the most barbaric in the world? See Saudi Arabia as a prime example.

 

[ak22]

Yes the Muslims are taking over ..... got to love these pathetic posts.

 

[Noxia]

I gotta say, if my meat is Halal or not really isn't a concern in the slightest. On a plus, if I have a Muslim friend over (not that I have any, not by choice) then chances are I'm safe apparently.

 

[Amp34]

you miss the part where school dinners and mass market meat from supermarkets is now halal...not kosher.

We are literally having Islamic practice rammed down our and our childrens throats.

Thoughts?

Your concern for the plight of not stunning animals for religious reasons due to halal is touching, but nowhere do you mention the shechita (kosher meat). It's also a shame that the general humane treatment of animals doesn't get anywhere near as much passion as Halal slaughtering methods . If there was that much passion about the general humane treatment of farm animals then our slaughter (and rearing) systems would be very different to what they were now.

As it is the non stunning of a small proportion of animals slaughtered by halal methods is way down my particular list of "things to change about the farming and slaughtering of farm animals"

?

There is no difference in the meat, it's not going to poison you and for most of it the only difference is someone said a few words over it before it was killed.

As I said there are plenty more practices I would sooner see banned than a small subsection of slaughtered animals having their throat slit without being stunned.

Every day we battle Islam, whether that's fighting Shariah courts. The Islamic brotherhood, Islamic despot leaders. Saudi Arabia.

Islam is an extreme religion. It seems to be intolerant in its message and deployment. Why are Islamic countries some of the most barbaric in the world? See Saudi Arabia as a prime example.

"We" don't battle Islam. A small subsection of society, including you perhaps, maybe, but most people can separate a religion form a group of people trying to kill us.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Disagreeing with Halal meat because of animal cruelty is such BS. You worry about the treatment of animals? Then why aren't you screaming about the cruel "meat-factory" conditions for livestock kept by *many* western countries and companies?

The meat you get from Tesco, Asda or any of the popular shops come from places like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TFdHAnpTYI

Unpleasant video depicting suffering of animals. You have been warned

 

[The Running Man]

?

There is no difference in the meat, it's not going to poison you and for most of it the only difference is someone said a few words over it before it was killed.

As I said there are plenty more practices I would sooner see banned than a small subsection of slaughtered animals having their throat slit without being stunned.

"We" don't battle Islam. A small subsection of society, including you perhaps, maybe, but most people can separate a religion form a group of people trying to kill us.

Non halal meat isn't going to poison Muslims either. But nope we should eat what they eat and not vice verse. Are you a Muslim by any chance?

We battle Islam daily. The fight against sexism, against oppression is literally a battle on one hand against Islam. The battle against international terrorism is again 99% a battle solely against Islam. There is so little good that Islam brings to the west, I will ask you - why do we want to encourage the growth of Islam In The U.K.? How does it benefit us?

The religion is simply too constricting for Muslims to lead a normal, cooperate and fulfilling life based upon western values.

You can bring up Judaism as much as you want but we don't see the Jewish people capturing hundreds of schoolgirls in Nigeria, suicide bombing towns and cities, starting a new caliphate and beheading people on tv. I'm sorry there is only one religion that is causing as much destruction and grief currently and no one can tell me why we should support, or encourage this religion especially here in the uk.

 

[robgmun]

I gotta say, if my meat is Halal or not really isn't a concern in the slightest.

It should, they are normally the cheapest nastiest meat and are terrible for your health. Stick to free-range, Corn feed or organic, that's how chicken is supposed to taste like, not some tasteless lump filled with water to artificially increase it's mass

 

[Noxia]

Disagreeing with Halal meat because of animal cruelty is such BS. You worry about the treatment of animals? Then why aren't you screaming about the cruel "meat-factory" conditions for livestock kept by *many* western countries and companies?

The meat you get from Tesco, Asda or any of the popular shops come from places like this:

I doubt anyone would watch that at work anyway but if you do beware it has many swears in it.

I'm sceptical about those videos really, for all we know that was taken over a long time period and thus a tiny percentage. It could also be employees not doing what they want due to not being watched and doesn't necessarily reflect on the standard operations.
I guess they scrapped the hours of 'good footage' where it was all done to the book.

It should, they are normally the cheapest nastiest meat and are terrible for your health. Stick to free-range, Corn feed or organic, that's how chicken is supposed to taste like, not some tasteless lump filled with water to artificially increase it's mass

Always eat free range chicken etc, but do you have a source for what you just said? Also, the meat can be free range and Halal so not sure again what the issue is.