ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

RoboCod said:
A but naive to believe that prisons can be better managed and that sort of thing prevented. I have a few friends who worked as wardens, they'd laugh at that comment.
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Question is - this is an isolated incident, how many violent incidents are there in prison each week? I'm guessing lots...
 
Screeeech said:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Interesting poll, the results don't surprise me but they frustrate me a little, because I get the impression that the whole situation is impossible.

One one side you have Muslims who are unhappy at how they're being treated, with relatively common reports of discrimination, hatred and general anti-Islamic rhetoric, which is wrong.

On the other side, more than half of all Muslims apparently think that homosexuality should be illegal, (which would make me illegal) among a whole load of other things, which is also wrong.

It seems as though Islam is almost condemning itself, it moans when it takes flack from people who don't like it - at the same time it has a tendency to speak out and criticise things that are harmless, that 95% of the general non-muslim public are perfectly fine with, I'm not sure what to make of the whole thing, and on top of all that the media are stood busy cranking any handle then possibly can in order to get as many views/whatever as possible.
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While that is a disappointingly high number of people I'd really like to know how it correlates with first generation immigrants and those born in Britain. It would be an interesting study and something that is rarely discussed.

The reason I mention it is because from my experience the second generation are much more liberal than the first, which makes sense - if you were born and spent the formative years of your life in a country where homosexuality was demonized you're be much more against it than someone that was born and grew up in the uk in the last 40 years.

It's also interesting how low the percentage of British Muslims that fully sympathize with terrorism (1%). Shows how small a proportion it actually is amongs British Muslims. Unfortunately that's not going to stop those believing all Muslims are the problem...

Edit: Caged, I did wonder that as well, especially thinking of African Christians here.
 
Amp34 said:
It's also interesting how low the percentage of British Muslims that fully sympathize with terrorism (1%). Shows how small a proportion it actually is amongs British Muslims. Unfortunately that's not going to stop those believing all Muslims are the problem...
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That isn't what it actually said - 1% strongly (completely) sympathised with those carrying out suicide bombings it doesn't say whether they supported terrorism or not.

You'd get an even more interesting answer if you asked directly how many support terrorism... how many define between terrorism and what would be generally called "jihad" ;)
 
Rroff said:
Very different situation though compared to a religion that at a fundamental level is incompatible with the Western way of life.

Disagreements on a country on country level rarely 100% preclude the ability to reconcile those differences at a later date.
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Yep,
almost nobody associates the Irish people of today with the IRA, you don't bump into an Irishman in the pub and think "well you lot killed Lord Mountbatten". Even if at the time that same Irishmen maybe had sympathy for the issue, these were just people stuck in a difficult situation.
Same for Germans, they are generally a people we like, partly from having a shared history. They killed nearly a million of us and yet we still like them.
(I'll maybe skip the Japanese as a touchy issue :o)

Say we do reach some kind of mythical accord with the Middle East, I bet in 50 years time many people will still remember "you came here and killed people on our streets"

There is no common point between our cultures, not in religion, not in food, not in politics, not in a shared history. There will never be sympathy between us.
 
Well yeah, that's true. But those said having "some sympathy" probably don't sympathize to the extent of killing people.... Not that we really know. You can quite easily have some sympathy for an action, but not condone it... (Edit - re reading your comment - I guess that's actually what you mean! My mistake - either way it appears to be a very low number.:))

Same with a question about Jihad, and terrorism for that matter. There are plenty of "terrorist" acts that don't involve killing innocent people and would be seen as "just" by many on this forum. You'd have to ask a specific question, like "do you believe the Paris attacks were right - yes/no" to get something particularly relevant. That's the problem with polls in general.
 
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Amp34 said:
It's also interesting how low the percentage of British Muslims that fully sympathize with terrorism (1%). Shows how small a proportion it actually is amongs British Muslims. Unfortunately that's not going to stop those believing all Muslims are the problem....
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What in numbers is that 1% and how many is to many?

And how do you quantify fully? So if you dont fully sympathize with terrorism put partly sympathize with terrorism then what are you, what a stupid argument.

So if you believe that then what in % is the number of these part sympathizers of terrorism?

I guess we dont have to have any worries about those one's then?
 
Yes, you can worry about the VERY SMALL proportion of British Muslims that are pro terrorism, but like you can worry about the VERY SMALL proportion of British public that are murderers. Doesn't mean all Muslims should be castigated...

If you don't fully sympathise with Terrorism then - to me - thy would mean you may sympathize with the cause but not the way people are going about furthering it... Obviously that's a personal opinion and it goes back to what I wrote in the post above yours about polls in general.

Same can be said about those polls that indicate pro "some form of sharia law". That could be anything from stoning adulterers to marriage dissolution to executing murderers or all of the above. There's just not enough information to really know.
 
For the numbers, see the table linked above.

Nobody is going to give you an answer on how many people sympathising with terrorism is an acceptable number, obviously it would be ideal if the number was zero. It does help gain some perspective though.
 
Amp34 said:
If you don't fully sympathise with Terrorism then - to me - thy would mean you may sympathize with the cause but not the way people are going about furthering it... Obviously that's a personal opinion and it goes back to what I wrote in the post above yours about polls in general.
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Sympathizing with the cause then breeds more hatred via association with like minded people, not forgetting the one's they drag into having the same mind set as them, then more hatred, which leads to lack of integration etc etc etc.

How does that help, they are just as bad as your fully sympathizers of terrorism example earlier.
 
Sarah murdered Ben by cutting off his gentleman area and letting him bleed out because he had raped her. Do you really think that someone who goes "She did what she should have, I totally agree with her actions/I would have done the same" is in any way as similar as someone saying "I see why she did it, and sympathise with her, but I don't condone her actions"?

They are totally different, and most people would see that.

While I agree that the fact someone sympathises with people* killing in the name of Islam/ISIS is a little worrying, it's totally different to someone that condones their actions! In the same way, people wanting to join Northern Island to the ROI by peaceful methods are not remotely similar to the IRA and dissident terrorist groups.

*Note: Not necessarily killing in the name of but the reasons people kill in the name of - big difference!
 
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rt-to-mainstream-islam-found-in-a6979471.html

Leaflets calling for the killing of members of the Ahmadi sect of Islam have been found in a south London mosque.

A pile of the flyers, which were found in Stockwell Green Mosque, seem to endorse the killing of Ahmadis if they do not convert to mainstream Islam.

It has been speculated that they were printed by Khatme Naubwwat - a group which says on its official website that its “sole aim has been and is to unite all the Muslims of the world to safeguard the sanctity of Prophethood and the finality of Prophethood and to refute the repudiators of the belief in the finality of Prophethood of the Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad”.

The leaflets say Ahmadis must convert to mainstream Islam within three days or face "the capital punishment”, meaning death.

They said they were written by Yusuf Ludhianvi, the founder of Khatme Naubwwat in Pakistan, who died in 2000.

One of the mosque’s trustees, Toaha Qureshi, said he had never seen the leaflets before and suggested they were fakes left there “maliciously”.

He told the BBC: "We have not published any pamphlet of that kind. This is nothing to do with our mosque. Someone might have put it there and taken from there with malicious intentions".
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Screeeech said:
Interesting poll, the results don't surprise me but they frustrate me a little, because I get the impression that the whole situation is impossible.
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This commentary on the methodology of that poll is worth reading. The tl;dr is that it will have missed half the Muslim population of the UK and likely have sampled from the least integrated segment of the population.
 
Mr Jack said:
This commentary on the methodology of that poll is worth reading. The tl;dr is that it will have missed half the Muslim population of the UK and likely have sampled from the least integrated segment of the population.
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What an apologist load of waffle. Basically trying to tell me that if the answers they give are controversial it's because the wrong Muslims have been asked. Or the right ones have been asked the wrong questions.

Risible.
 
Chris Wilson said:
What an apologist load of waffle. Basically trying to tell me that if the answers they give are controversial it's because the wrong Muslims have been asked. Or the right ones have been asked the wrong questions.
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No, I'm telling you the dataset has issues.

Risible.
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Yeah, who wants to bother thinking about their sources. That'd be inconvenient :rolleyes:
 
Mr Jack said:
No, I'm telling you the dataset has issues.
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I really don't care what the socially integrated muslims of Cornwall think,
I care about the mindset of the typical Tower Hamlets socially conservative muslim.

Although all we know now is exactly what the Right have been pointing out to the depressingly naive Left for a decade. You don't need a poll to confirm the obvious.
 
Mr Jack said:
This commentary on the methodology of that poll is worth reading. The tl;dr is that it will have missed half the Muslim population of the UK and likely have sampled from the least integrated segment of the population.
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Interesting commentary, especially the methodology behind it, something I would never have considered.

Unfortunately a certain group of people wouldn't see a positive poll unles Muslims were whiter than white compared to the rest of the population.
 
Amp34 said:
Muslims were whiter than white compared to the rest of the population.
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Isn't that the point though? Nobody is whiter than white.
Just as many BNP people are perfectly OK with muslims getting bombed, as soc-con muslims are with white people getting bombed.
Both groups contribute to the demonising of the entirety of their respective cultures.
 
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