ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

arknor said:
its likely there would be no isis without the second iraq war which bush and blair started so in essence they created isis?
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No they didn't create ISIS. ISIS created it's self in part due to the power vacuum created after the second gulf war.

ISIS took root in the new era created in Iraq after the Americans took control of the country in 2003. The Second Gulf War led to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein’s regime, the dismantling of the Iraqi army and the destruction of the existing governmental structure. As a result, a security and governmental vacuum was created and the country’s fragile social fabric (in the middle of which was the volatile Sunni-Shi’ite schism) was severely damaged. The allies helped create the vacuum but they did not create ISIS. The last thing the allies wanted was ISIS but it became a consequence of their actions and that is where the buck stops. Cause and affect. The allies could not foresee ISIS so how could they create it? This is a common misconception made by people who don't know the facts properly.

One thing people need to ask themselves is what would the Middle East look like today without the second Gulf War?
 
StriderX said:
If we had not invaded a country for the lols, then no ISIS would not need to have existed.

So in effect it is directly because of the war, as it destroyed all power in the country and it hardly helped that some of the old Iraqi military joined up.

So don't just fling it off like its not our fault they exist, because its "complex". After all the US has been meddling there for decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Iraq, but nah, we only had a tiny involvement eh?
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I'm just gonna quote from Wikipedia:

"Consequently, postwar Saudi policy focused on ways to contain potential Iraqi threats to the kingdom and the region. One elements of Riyadh's containment policy included support for Iraqi opposition forces that advocated the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's government."

Despite many Iraqi ex-military being involved with ISIS and potentially being a good part of the "success" and evolution of that organisation they are actually ideology wise mostly on the other side of the fence compared to what ISIS grew out of and its roots certainly don't start purely with the invasion of Iraq.
 
Rroff said:
I'm just gonna quote from Wikipedia:

"Consequently, postwar Saudi policy focused on ways to contain potential Iraqi threats to the kingdom and the region. One elements of Riyadh's containment policy included support for Iraqi opposition forces that advocated the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's government."

Despite many Iraqi ex-military being involved with ISIS and potentially being a good part of the "success" and evolution of that organisation they are actually ideology wise mostly on the other side of the fence compared to what ISIS grew out of and its roots certainly don't start purely with the invasion of Iraq.
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And the Saudis are our esteemed allies...

Sliver said:
No they didn't create ISIS. ISIS created it's self in part due to the power vacuum created after the second gulf war.

ISIS took root in the new era created in Iraq after the Americans took control of the country in 2003. The Second Gulf War led to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein’s regime, the dismantling of the Iraqi army and the destruction of the existing governmental structure. As a result, a security and governmental vacuum was created and the country’s fragile social fabric (in the middle of which was the volatile Sunni-Shi’ite schism) was severely damaged. The allies helped create the vacuum but they did not create ISIS. The last thing the allies wanted was ISIS but it became a consequence of their actions and that is where the buck stops. Cause and affect. The allies could not foresee ISIS so how could they create it? This is a common misconception made by people who don't know the facts properly.

One thing people need to ask themselves is what would the Middle East look like today without the second Gulf War?
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Perhaps, but the war still destroyed the country, ISIS would not have been allowed to grow under Saddam, something else might have and a rebellion might have occured regardless. ISIS prominence is entirely our fault, by instituting a purely one-sided faction as government led by a previous coup leader.
 
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StriderX said:
ISIS prominence is entirely our fault, by instituting a purely one-sided faction as government led by a previous coup leader.
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It's not entirely our fault at all. What planet are you living on? The restoration of the lost caliphate isn't an idea of the Western Allies. It's Muslims. Remember, ISIS simply replaced AQ. There were terrorists groups flourishing in Iraq long before we got there. We helped, blindly, create the conditions that allowed ISIS to grow. That's it. That's as far as it goes.
 
Sliver said:
It's not entirely our fault at all. What planet are you living on? The restoration of the lost caliphate isn't an idea of the Western Allies. It's Muslims. Remember, ISIS simply replaced AQ. There were terrorists groups flourishing in Iraq long before we got there. We helped, blindly, create the conditions that allowed ISIS to grow. That's it. That's as far as it goes.
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I entirely realise the partisan conflict, but we incite it with the intention to sell arms.

Sure it would all end tomorrow if people in the middle-east just stopped their cultural aggression against each other, but that's not going to happen if we continue to force regimes and regime changes on them. So we have to take the vast burden of the current state of the Middle-east, as the US (and other anglo-states) are the apparent policeman of the world.

We can't just exit the region now, as there are several generations of people who either rely on this exacerbated conflict and the perception that we'd ignoring it as we have in Syria in effect (though frankly i don't mind our inaction here).
 
Sliver said:
It's not entirely our fault at all. What planet are you living on? The restoration of the lost caliphate isn't an idea of the Western Allies. It's Muslims. Remember, ISIS simply replaced AQ. There were terrorists groups flourishing in Iraq long before we got there. We helped, blindly, create the conditions that allowed ISIS to grow. That's it. That's as far as it goes.
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We also helped them organize themselves and communicate by putting their (future) leaders in the same prison.

No, we didn't create ISIS but we had a major (unintentional) hand in their creation, and they probably wouldn't have existed if not for the US/UK invasion of Iraq. Further strengthened by the subsequent attack on Libya and the backing of rebels in Syria.
 
Sliver said:
Indeed, but to say Tony Blair/George Bush 'created' ISIS is an ignorant blindness to the facts.
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It came to be due entirely to their incompetence/ineptitude.

They may not have done it deliberately, but to say it's not their fault is laughable, they caused it, they are directly responsible for the outcome.

If you **** into the wind you can't tell the guy behind you that it's not your fault because you weren't aiming for them.
 
StriderX said:
Tell me, will you believe everything the Trump Press officer says at the White House Podium?
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No but I bet you'll carry on quoting Putin statements as if they're the gospel truth ;)

ThestigGT999 said:
tony blair and bush created isis
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This is why most people discount anything you ever post.

StriderX said:
If we had not invaded a country for the lols, then no ISIS would not need to have existed.

So in effect it is directly because of the war, as it destroyed all power in the country and it hardly helped that some of the old Iraqi military joined up.

So don't just fling it off like its not our fault they exist, because its "complex". After all the US has been meddling there for decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Iraq, but nah, we only had a tiny involvement eh?
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This is just a short sighted view. I've said it over before, this is just another phase of the sunni-shia war. If it wasn't ISIL it would be something else. You ought to stop looking at things in absolutes. Yes, the west triggered another part of the continuing hostilities but no, the west didn't go about creating ISIL, like it was an intention. In any case, so what??? What is the fallout? Who holds who accountable? What's the repercussion? What are YOU going to be able to do about it?
 
ubersonic said:
It came to be due entirely to their incompetence/ineptitude.

They may not have done it deliberately, but to say it's not their fault is laughable, they caused it, they are directly responsible for the outcome.
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Absolute nonsense. You live in a fantasy world. Vapid, fallacious, pernicious deceptions, facile assertions and overt mistruths. It's people like you who obfuscate, procrastinate and devastate rational discourse on this topic. I couldn't be more recalcitrant toward your view point if you had denied the holocaust. Insidious and puerile, incredulous and immature. Fact check yourself!
 
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