ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

But it is a CW when used as a weapon.

No it's not.

" An annex lists chemicals that fall under this definition and WP is not listed in the Schedules of chemical weapons or precursors"

"The OPCW, using member votes, creates Schedules of chemical weapons or dual-use chemicals of concern and white phosphorus is not in any of these schedules."
 
No it's not.

" An annex lists chemicals that fall under this definition and WP is not listed in the Schedules of chemical weapons or precursors"

"The OPCW, using member votes, creates Schedules of chemical weapons or dual-use chemicals of concern and white phosphorus is not in any of these schedules."

Apologies - I was in error. I remembered it being illegal that Israel used it and thought that was due to it being a Chemical Weapon when used as such. But the illegality was because they used it on civilians which it is banned against as it is classed as an Incendiary Weapon.

My mistake.
 
Apologies - I was in error. I remembered it being illegal that Israel used it and thought that was due to it being a Chemical Weapon when used as such. But the illegality was because they used it on civilians which it is banned against as it is classed as an Incendiary Weapon.

My mistake.

The law on it is murky. It's only illegal if its intentionally used as a weapon. If its used passively.for smoke and 'happens' to harm someone then that's just fine. I don't think anyone proved Israel used it as a weapon and obviously they went with the smokescreen defence.
 
I think you may have confused me with Screech. Or else I've got my quote tags muddled up. I most certainly was NOT defending Israel's use of White Phosphorus - I was clarifying that it IS a CW and illegal. I've been arguing with Screech that our leaders are provably NOT altruistic and that questions about should the West intervene altruistically are impossible given the evidence. I don't think our leaders are acting out of altruism.

I may have misunderstood your post thinking you were saying the motives seem to be altruistic as opposed to the posters being naive to think the motives are altruistic.

The White Phosphorous question wasn't aimed directly at you however it was a general question to the audience of where is the outrage when a "bastion of light" nation does it compared to "axis of evil" like Syria even when it's under the guise of legal usage, it's like somehow it's better to be dead by a bomb than a chemical the result is the same as is the chance for a slow and painful death if you're not directly hit

Lol. Clutching at straws!

Really ? highlighting not only the stupidity of it all but the double standards and hypocrisy is clutching at straws ?
 
I think you're missing the whole point. Chemical weapons are completely indiscriminate, direct weapons are not. Not only that, white phos isn't even barely comparable to chlorine gas.

However, if you just want to dance around a camp fire with flowers in your hair and preach about peace and love, this is the wrong thread for you.
 
a general question to the audience of where is the outrage when a "bastion of light" nation does it compared to "axis of evil" like Syria even when it's under the guise of legal usage

You keep saying this about "bastion of light" or "bastion of purity"..Can you show me anyone actually describing "The West" as that, because they aren't. Just saying certain regimes are worse than us isn't saying we're perfect.

And if you want to see outrage about a "bastion of light" country using WP, then just google US attack on fallujah.
 
Well the West has a strange advantage when it uses rather disastrous weapons, it's easy to blame the little guys on the ground, while the people in the White house got to go home with nary a conscience hindered.
 
I think you're missing the whole point. Chemical weapons are completely indiscriminate, direct weapons are not. Not only that, white phos isn't even barely comparable to chlorine gas.

Because if you drop a few thousand lb's of bombs in a residential area the people are going to be less dead than if you drop some chemical weapons on them right ? Please, show me a war in the last 100 years where there has been zero collateral damage to civilians

I think you're missing the point of the absurdity to claim that it's better to kill another human with one method over another in war, war is ugly, it's far from clean and people need to stop living in this fantasy world that rules are going to make death in a war less terrible, saying white phos isn't comparable to chlorine gas just highlights the absurdity like it's ok to use white phos but don't use chlorine because it's worse, they're both equally bad

Is it really worth escalating over because some civilians died in a war that has been going on longer than WW2 ? That we helped start ?
 
NM Found it

Here if anyone want a link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33vt9oghuvM

Edit: I've had a family member (who was a medical professional) look at this and it is clearly faked. No signs of chemical weapons, either burning, foam at the mouth etc. But there is clear signs of unconciousness, so if it wasn't chemical weapons then it was probably an opiate overdose.

The media should have acknowledged this after it was recognised to be a fake, and an investigation into the creators, the accounts used to publish the video etc.

Thanks for sharing that evaluation, Andy. I'm not a medical professional but that is how it always looked to me (opiate overdose). What did they make of the manner in which the long (and fully inserted) needle was moved all sorts of ways once inside the chest of the poor child? Looked to me like they were making sure they would die. In the video, he moves the needle for at least four seconds during 1:14 to 1:18 until the camera pans away.
 
Because if you drop a few thousand lb's of bombs in a residential area the people are going to be less dead than if you drop some chemical weapons on them right ? Please, show me a war in the last 100 years where there has been zero collateral damage to civilians

I think you're missing the point of the absurdity to claim that it's better to kill another human with one method over another in war, war is ugly, it's far from clean and people need to stop living in this fantasy world that rules are going to make death in a war less terrible, saying white phos isn't comparable to chlorine gas just highlights the absurdity like it's ok to use white phos but don't use chlorine because it's worse, they're both equally bad

Is it really worth escalating over because some civilians died in a war that has been going on longer than WW2 ? That we helped start ?
I didn't say it's ok to use white phos and I didn't say it's better to drop big bombs. It is less worse to drop bombs though, particularly if they are direct fire, precision guided munitions.

I think you ought to go make another thread about war being bad and your air your views about some utopian fantasy world there. This thread is a discussion about ISIS, not about your hippy idealistic views.
 
This thread is a discussion about ISIS, not about your hippy idealistic views.

Then why are we even discussing Assad using chemical weapons ?

And if you think I have hippy idealistic views you yet again show your absolute ignorance like you've done for the last few days, I also care not what you think because you're as insulting as you are petulant, you should grow up and actually try to offer intelligent discussion instead of resorting to weak insults every time you confront someone who disagrees with you. Your cognition is utterly bizarre if you can think that me saying "who cares if he used chemical weapons or bombs it's the same result" equates to me being a peace loving hippy but keep on being insulting if you want.
 
Then why are we even discussing Assad using chemical weapons ?

And if you think I have hippy idealistic views you yet again show your absolute ignorance like you've done for the last few days, I also care not what you think because you're as insulting as you are petulant, you should grow up and actually try to offer intelligent discussion instead of resorting to weak insults every time you confront someone who disagrees with you. Your cognition is utterly bizarre if you can think that me saying "who cares if he used chemical weapons or bombs it's the same result" equates to me being a peace loving hippy but keep on being insulting if you want.

All you've done for the last few pages is harp on about war being bad. What else are we supposed to think?

If you're going to get so upset when your views are criticised then perhaps keep them to yourself.
 
When you hear of reports like this, then you question things


I think given that we've already had confirmed chemical attacks in the past and given that the rebels don't have airpower, only the regime... then a helicopter dropping chemical weapons is thanks to the Syrian government.

Strangely enough Russia goes into the usual disinformation mode simultaneously denying there was an attack and blaming others for the attack and of course third parties aren't allowed access to the site of the attack + the proposal for an investigation blocked in the UN security council by Russia.

This should have been nipped in the bud back in 2013... some shock and awe would be useful but probably won't be coming, but there does seem to be some willingness now from the US, UK and France to at least do something in response to this and hopefully a bit more than the token effort last time.
 
All you've done for the last few pages is harp on about war being bad. What else are we supposed to think?

If you're going to get so upset when your views are criticised then perhaps keep them to yourself.

Bit of a difference between criticising views vs being outright insulting which you unfortunately have a habit of resorting to when you run out of anything remotely intelligent to say.

I haven't once said war is bad (even if I do disagree with humans killing humans I'm under no hippy illusions about it. It's in our nature having only had peace on this planet for 8% of the last 3,400 years), I've been highlighting the utter hypocrisy and double standards of what is happening right now.

Makes no difference if Assad drops 1000lbs of bombs or uses chemicals on rebels and the civilians they hold captive or if the rebels did it themselves, they're all still dead just because chemicals were used doesn't make them more dead and it's absolutely ******* stupid to pretend to be outraged just because they died in a way you and the international community deem not acceptable to die as if there's a good and bad way to die and certainly not worth the potential conflict against Russia, Iran and China (China have said they'll back up Russia)
 
Thanks for sharing that evaluation, Andy. I'm not a medical professional but that is how it always looked to me (opiate overdose). What did they make of the manner in which the long (and fully inserted) needle was moved all sorts of ways once inside the chest of the poor child? Looked to me like they were making sure they would die. In the video, he moves the needle for at least four seconds during 1:14 to 1:18 until the camera pans away.

It is possible that they were trying to do a pericardiocentesis, you see how he aspirated as he advanced, unlikely but possible. Also the laryngoscope is incorrect as the other doctors mentioned, although the guy never tried to use it so it could be that he carried it around - if i'm not incorrect they have interchangeable blades. Though it looks more like a prop than anything (just a guess).

My family member though was pretty convinced all the children in the video were already dead before they started filming, and the supposed injection wouldn't have been carried out like that, the heart is easy to hit, you don't need to keep moving the needle and syringe, especially not as significantly as they did in the video. another inconsistency, purely an impression based on the medics behaviour, in that they behaved more like mortury workers and not medics.

There is one thing that is not quite right with the conclusion of opiate overdose, and that is if they were given enough to cause significant respiritory depression and also supress conciousness then there would also be much more obvious signs of hypoxia (blueish lips, skin etc). And, even with quite big overdoses pain stimuli such as the chest compressions shown can cause an obvious reaction. Personally I do not think they were medical professionals at all, and that it also wasn't an opiate overdose.

Bit of a difference between criticising views vs being outright insulting which you unfortunately have a habit of resorting to when you run out of anything remotely intelligent to say.

I haven't once said war is bad (even if I do disagree with humans killing humans I'm under no hippy illusions about it. It's in our nature having only had peace on this planet for 8% of the last 3,400 years), I've been highlighting the utter hypocrisy and double standards of what is happening right now.

Makes no difference if Assad drops 1000lbs of bombs or uses chemicals on rebels and the civilians they hold captive or if the rebels did it themselves, they're all still dead just because chemicals were used doesn't make them more dead and it's absolutely ******* stupid to pretend to be outraged just because they died in a way you and the international community deem not acceptable to die as if there's a good and bad way to die and certainly not worth the potential conflict against Russia, Iran and China (China have said they'll back up Russia)

True, but there is also the fact that who ever has used the weapons has broken international law. If there is no punishment that sends a signal to every dictator that they can use these weapons with inpunity. There has to be a price/consequence. If not then this will happen again and again just like it has in Syria already. There should have been concentrated action when the OPCW and UN report concluded that Assad had used chemical weapons.

There is also evidence that the chemical weapons used in 2013, which the OPCW has samples of match the samples taken from two other attacks

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-largest-sarin-attack-sources-idUSKBN1FJ0MG

which is pretty damming considering it comes from an independent body, but it does back up what the west has said previously and proves the Syrian and Russian narative was wrong.
 
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