ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

[vincent1989]

And the innocents they've murdered indiscriminately and actively in some cases?

War is hell, look at what the British and US governments have been willing to do to civilians indiscriminately and actively:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

but look at us now, 'World Police'.

You can stand in your ivory tower throwing tomahawks about but when your country and it's allies literally invented the WMD and were the first to bring it to market and used it not on military targets but on civilians...well.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

I was just saying that it’s rather convenient that they always limit the info and keep things vague so that they can’t be criticised for it. It’s been this way since Iraq - it’s been shown how politically damaging ‘getting it wrong’ can be.

It’s not a case of making alternative plans, I’d just must rather be able to able to hold leaders to account when they mess up.

Of course we have to hold them to account, however what I can't understand is why Joe Public expects to see all the investigation and evidence findings right away, we have no business knowing this at the time when immediate action is deemed to be required. Is it also to be expected that they explain all the targets that are to be hit before they strike as well, information travels across the world in an instant now, the need for secrecy in military actions is paramount for their safety.

 

[gettothechopper]

Yeah, ISIS just want to implement sharia law and live peacefully, all they want to do is throw gays off of buildings, stone women to death, destroy anyone that wont convert. Just peaceful, fun loving things.

You keep going on about Isis
Assad avoided fighting Isis for most of the war,

It's been the Kurds, Iraqis and US, french and UK air strikes that have pushed Isis back

Assad only joined in once Isis had already been smashed by others

 

[Dis86]

War is hell, look at what the British and US governments have been willing to do to civilians indiscriminately and actively:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

but look at us now, 'World Police'.

Anything that didn't happen 80 years ago? It's almost - almost as if we've moved on in terms of civilisation. It's almost - almost as if that was a situation of total war. It's almost - almost as if they weren't our own people.

 

[Hagar]

Chlorine isn't a chemical weapon though so it wouldn't really be in such a place.

A tank at the airfield where you use it would suffice etc

Chlorine reacts inside the lungs forming hydrochloric acid and causing severe burns. Many die months and years later as evidenced in the first world war. What else do you need to be, not to be a chemical weapon. As it is weaponised, put into shell / bomb casings, it is definitely a chemical weapon.

 

[Dis86]

It's unlikely they'd be able to tell us everything given the realities of intelligence gathering. Revealing everything would reveal techniques, human sources, vulnerabilities in Syrian/Russian security, would reveal to them what we know about their secret programmes, etc.

Shh, don't come in here with your common sense and logic.

 

[vincent1989]

Anything that didn't happen 80 years ago? It's almost - almost as if we've moved on in terms of civilisation. It's almost - almost as if that was a situation of total war. It's almost - almost as if they weren't our own people.

Wow, you're one sick, blood thirsty puppy. They weren't our people, so it doesn't count? blow me but wasn't that old Adolfs justification for the holocaust?

It's almost as if the country of Syria is in a total state of war, It's almost as if the government of Syria are trying to preserve order and sustain vital infrastructure for the majority of the population who back the government. It's almost if the government of Syria has acted in the interests of everyone who wanted to go about living their ordinary lives. It's almost as if they are protecting their own people.

 

[Dis86]

Wow, you're one sick, blood thirsty puppy. They weren't out people, so it doesn't count?

It's almost as if the country of Syria is in a total state of war, It's almost as if the government of Syria are trying to preserve order and sustain vital infrastructure for the majority of the population who back the government. It's almost if the government of Syria has acted in the interests of everyone who wanted to go about living their ordinary lives. It's almost as if they are protecting their own people.

As I've already pointed out the government started the war by killing peaceful protesters.

The country is not in a state of total war, clearly you don't know the meaning of the words. It's in a state of civil war (started by the government remember). How exactly were they protecting their people by killing them?

And yes, murdering your own citizens is very different to killing those of a country you're at war with. Also just remind me - what came first, the blitz or Dresden? Nanking or Hiroshima?

 

[vincent1989]

As I've already pointed out the government started the war by killing peaceful protesters.

The country is not in a state of total war, clearly you don't know the meaning of the words.

total war
noun

1. a war which is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued, especially one in which the accepted rules of war are disregarded.

If that doesn't exactly describe Syria then I think you're making up your own word meanings.

It's in a state of civil war (started by the government remember). How exactly were they protecting their people by killing them?

And yes, murdering your own citizens is very different to killing those of a country you're at war with. Also just remind me - what came first, the blitz or Dresden? Nanking or Hiroshima?

I thought civilians were innocents? You justify the killing of civilians when their government, whom they have very little control over, kill other civilians? Bizarre logic, but an admission that in war you accept things that you wouldn't otherwise accept in peace time. Like the loss of civilians for the gains of the majority of your countrymen.

 

[Dis86]

total war
noun

1. a war which is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued, especially one in which the accepted rules of war are disregarded.

If that doesn't exactly describe Syria then I think you're making up your own word meanings.




I thought civilians were innocents? You justify the killing of civilians when their government, whom they have very little control over, kill other civilians? Bizarre logic.

Except the war is restricted to Syria with it being...you know...the Syrian civil war. So therefore not unrestricted, therefore not total war.

The civilians in both Germany and Japan were active in supporting their governments war efforts. Go read a book on WW2.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

total war
noun

1. a war which is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued, especially one in which the accepted rules of war are disregarded.

If that doesn't exactly describe Syria then I think you're making up your own word meanings.




I thought civilians were innocents? You justify the killing of civilians when their government, whom they have very little control over, kill other civilians? Bizarre logic, but an admission that in war you accept things that you wouldn't otherwise accept in peace time. Like the loss of civilians for the gains of the majority of your countrymen.

All this aside, will you acknowledge that the government started the conflict by murdering it's own people?

 

[ThestigGT999]

 

[Amnesia]

It's unlikely they'd be able to tell us everything given the realities of intelligence gathering. Revealing everything would reveal techniques, human sources, vulnerabilities in Syrian/Russian security, would reveal to them what we know about their secret programmes, etc.

i thought they revealed the source as the white helmets ?

 

[RoboCod]

.
At least we know where you stand. Like the UK, US and France you are now supporting ISIS... Bravo!

Bot accounts... Is that tin foil hat beginning to itch?

 

[vincent1989]

All this aside, will you acknowledge that the government started the conflict by murdering it's own people?

Is it acceptable for the UK government to extrajudicially murder, by drone strike, it's own citizens who take up the cause of an enemy when they pose no direct threat to the government or the people of the UK?

If the answer is yes then you must also accept that the Syrian government is also justified in the extrajudicial killing of it's own citizens who side with a cause that is contrary to the will of the people that the government is bound to protect.

The west's near ceaseless meddling for decades led these countries to this point because it served our interests. You can not seek to other throw governments of other countries and expect them not to act, The Arab Spring, which is where this conflict originated, has left a swath of countries significantly worse off than they were before and that is what was also attempted in Syria. If there were forces acting in this country to destabilise this country you can bet our government would be acting to preserve the status quo for the majority of the population. The government were not above charging down, on horse back like some medieval cavalry, and beating 'peacefully' striking miners at Orgreave because they threatened the stability of this country. Our government is not above testing biological agents, whose affects they aren't certain of, on thousands of unsuspecting, unknowing British civilians. Heaven forbid a foreign power had decided to remove the UK government for those acts. But all this is justifiable by you because as humans we love nothing more than to believe we are right, we are good, we are the arbiters of justice, never mind turning a blind eye to anything that might make us appear just as culpable.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

[Dis86]

Is it acceptable for the UK government to extrajudicially murder, by drone strike, it's own citizens who take up the cause of an enemy when they pose no direct threat to the government or the people of the UK?

If the answer is yes then you must also accept that the Syrian government is also justified in the extrajudicial killing of it's own citizens who side with a cause that is contrary to the will of the people that the government is bound to protect.

The west's near ceaseless meddling for decades led these countries to this point because it served our interests. You can not seek to other throw governments of other countries and expect them not to act, The Arab Spring, which is where this conflict originated, has left a swath of countries significantly worse off than they were before and that is what was also attempted in Syria. If there were forces acting in this country to destabilise this country you can bet our government would be acting to preserve the status quo for the majority of the population. The government were not above charging down, on horse back like some medieval cavalry, and beating 'peacefully' striking miners at Orgreave because they threatened the stability of this country. Our government is not above testing biological agents, whose affects they aren't certain of, on thousands of unsuspecting, unknowing British civilians. Heaven forbid a foreign power had decided to remove the UK government for those acts. But all this is justifiable by you because as humans we love nothing more than to believe we are right, we are good, we are the arbiters of justice, never mind turning a blind eye to anything that might make us appear just as culpable.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Yeah...ok. So can you just run it by me how blowing up Islamic terrorists who have kidnapped or killed British and other allied civilians in incredibly brutal ways (Kayla Mueller, Alan Henning) is the same as shooting a teenager chanting in the street?

 

[DarrenM343]

If its true about them using WMDs against their own people its wrong! That's our job!



Concern that no investigation has taken place and that the evidence comes from a group that has conducted gas attacks on the Kurds and is a terrorist network. Not fear. The fear is held by the Western nations governments that their people will wake up and realize the sheer level of deceit.



I actually burst out laughing when I read this.

And we made a great job haven't we. Slave markets in Libya, thousands of [UK/US backed] terror groups operating in the region.



Even if most of our own citizens are against the war... **** em.



Pity that.




Or... Leave Assad to defeat ISIS and pressure for reforms. We could get out and that would end it.



A statement that has neither evidence nor corroboration excepting the mostly highly questionable (inc some terrorist) sources.



If I wasn't on my phone I would refer you to the erudite posts from Sven256 in another thread showing the living standards in Govt control and those under ISIS control.



I'd be wanting to know to whom my choler should be directed toward first.



Yes they do... We swapped Assad for ISIS. Sounds like a progression.



Not at all, just don't want to be in a situation where this attack puts the citizens of the country in an untenable position.

General Melched/UK govt to British Citizens:
"We're behind you"
Blackadder/Red pulled citizens:
"About 35miles behind us"

Wars begin where Governments fail their people

How old are you? People see things a little different with age .
Not arguing your points. I'm fed up with all the nonsense in the world, personally. You've obviously done a lot of reading but sometimes you just need to look at the big picture. Chemical weapons on own people = likely what has happened and BAD. A long drawn out civil war = BAD. Human beings living on a "special" planet, so far, the only planet known to be supporting intelligent life fighting/hating each other for greed, race, region = BAD. We need to start tidying up the place and the people of the world imo should now stand up and force a global change. UK/USA and others sure have made plenty of mistakes in the past but sure we can learn from lessons huh?
Heck, Isounded like Trump there at a few times.
Quickly typed but hopefully get my points. I don't care for the noise, I want to see a better world than this sh** - setting off chemical weapons for example, threatening to use weapons on each other, people here in the UK talking nonsense about it all from the comfort of their home (distanced from the reality the civilians face) when really we proably hardly know the REAL picture. Hopefully if you disagree you can join me in the belief that the human race needs to get past all this nonsense. Ditch greed, racism and ALL religions, then maybe,........ .

if we all do enough research, we can all find enough so called "proof" to back up our beliefs, whether they're right or wrong.

The human race is its own biggest enemy. Rather stupid for such an intelligent species

 

[vincent1989]

There's a difference between targeted drone strikes on specific targets and indiscriminate use of chemical weapons/indiscriminate bombardment/forced displacement/etc. One's kosher under international law, the other isn't.

If one is Kosher under international law and one isn't then why are we developing our own chemical agents, why do we have stockpiles of chemical weapons if they can't ever be used, why were we using such horrific chemical weapons as recently as the Iraq war, why have we sold weapons, universally condemned by the international community, such as cluster bombs, to our allies, why do we tolerate the use of those weapons by our allies, why do we stand by and watch as Isreal guns down children with weapons we sell them, as Saudi Arabia starves countries at the point of a gun with weapons we sell them. As brutal dictators the world over, who we put in place, bomb and shoot and gas and torture their own citizens and the peoples of countries around them with weapons we supply, with chemicals we sell them why do we stand by and watch until our interests are compromised?

This intervention is not about justice or morality. Intervention in the middle east seems never to have been about justice and morality. It's about greed and power.

 

[vincent1989]

Yeah...ok. So can you just run it by me how blowing up Islamic terrorists who have kidnapped or killed British and other allied civilians in incredibly brutal ways (Kayla Mueller, Alan Henning) is the same as shooting a teenager chanting in the street?

You're no better than the man you claim Assad to be. You effectively state that once they side with the enemy they cease to be our people? I don't need to say any more, you undo your own argument.

 

[Dis86]

You're no better than the man you claim Assad to be. You effectively state that once they side with the enemy they cease to be our people? I don't need to say any more, you undo your own argument.

Lol, didn't think you'd have an answer to that. Shill status: CONFIRMED