ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

RoboCod said:
IN THIS THREAD....the male population of a country are trained to use complex SAM systems and can successfully shoot down an air liner with one. First shot too! Some ninja nationwide training there.
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I doubt it is quite as hard as some are making out to pickup the basics (using it well another matter) assuming you have some kind of manual and some kind of relevant experience - though my experience of anything like that doesn't go beyond having a go on the Para's MILAN missile simulator - but it was easy enough to get to grips with.
 
Rroff said:
I doubt it is quite as hard as some are making out to pickup the basics (using it well another matter) assuming you have some kind of manual and some kind of relevant experience - though my experience of anything like that doesn't go beyond having a go on the Para's MILAN missile simulator - but it was easy enough to get to grips with.
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Been watching this, only few minutes in and I have learned how to turn on the radar, how to read the height and speed of the target aircraft and how to feed the information from the radar to the targeting computer.

I don't know how accurate the controls are to the real thing, but I would think it's as real as it can get and that said, if you look hard enough and am guessing if you can read Russian, maybe the instruction manuals are online somewhere.
 
RoboCod said:
IN THIS THREAD....the male population of a country are trained to use complex SAM systems and can successfully shoot down an air liner with one. First shot too! Some ninja nationwide training there.
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Indeed. Obvs there was a training manual laying about somewhere or maybe they watched some YouTube videos...

I guess people believe whatever they want to believe, that seems to include ignoring the obvious like actual trained air defence soldiers from the Russian army likely being present.
 
dowie said:
Indeed. Obvs there was a training manual laying about somewhere or maybe they watched some YouTube videos...

I guess people believe whatever they want to believe, that seems to include ignoring the obvious like actual trained air defence soldiers from the Russian army likely being present.
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And the fact there were no Ukrainian buks present and the one in question was tracked moving from Russia in the days before the shootdown straight back to Russia the day after.
 
IronWarrior said:

Been watching this, only few minutes in and I have learned how to turn on the radar, how to read the height and speed of the target aircraft and how to feed the information from the radar to the targeting computer.

I don't know how accurate the controls are to the real thing, but I would think it's as real as it can get and that said, if you look hard enough and am guessing if you can read Russian, maybe the instruction manuals are online somewhere.
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Quite a bit more complicated than I thought it would be - some truly old school systems there heh - that said fairly intuitive once you've seen the run down for target acquisition, firing mode selection, etc.
 
Rroff said:
Quite a bit more complicated than I thought it would be - some truly old school systems there heh - that said fairly intuitive once you've seen the run down for target acquisition, firing mode selection, etc.
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I think the complexity of the system lies in being able to tell the difference between a passenger jet and a military jet on the radar screen because there is no system that does this it's all down to expertise (or lack of it if you're accidentally shooting down civilian jets)
 
Rroff said:
Quite a bit more complicated than I thought it would be - some truly old school systems there heh - that said fairly intuitive once you've seen the run down for target acquisition, firing mode selection, etc.
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Yeah for sure, to be honest, I found Digital Combat Sim A-10C Warthog really complicated, wasn't able to start the engines. lol

Reading online, there are huge amount of guides and printouts you need to learn to play.
 
Minusorange said:
I think the complexity of the system lies in being able to tell the difference between a passenger jet and a military jet on the radar screen because there is no system that does this it's all down to expertise (or lack of it if you're accidentally shooting down civilian jets)
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That's the problem with these old AA systems, they can't tell the difference. That responsibility lies with their chain of command and bigger radar systems.
 
Minusorange said:
I think the complexity of the system lies in being able to tell the difference between a passenger jet and a military jet on the radar screen because there is no system that does this it's all down to expertise (or lack of it if you're accidentally shooting down civilian jets)
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Yeah I guess with a system like that it would rely on being able to figure out from the radar track, target altitude and speed, etc. and/or cross referencing with ADS-B if you have access to it and so on.
 
Minusorange said:
To be fair they could have captured one and been untrained idiots messing around with it and fired accidentally at MH17 ?
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That's the most likely scenario based on the official facts/evidence (and not RoboCod's super secret intel that nobody but he is allowed to see).

We know for a fact from the Dutch accident report the missile was fired by a Buk and that it was located in an area held by the pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels, we also know for a fact that those rebels had Buks which they had captured from Ukrainian forces a few weeks prior, we also know for a fact that at least one Buk was smuggled into Russia in the days following the MH17 shootdown, and we know for a fact that two days before MH17 an An-26 was shot down while flying at high altitude and there were no fighters detected in the area (which means it was almost certainly done by a Buk though that cannot be proven 100%).

Considering how the Buk systems are designed to be operated by an idiot with five minutes training the idea that the rebels were just firing on what they thought were Ukrainian military targets and shot down MH17 by accident is definitely the most plausible/likely scenario based on the evidence available, and significantly more likely than the idea of Russia deliberately shooting it down itself for "reasons".
 
ubersonic said:
Considering how the Buk systems are designed to be operated by an idiot with five minutes training the idea that the rebels were just firing on what they thought were Ukrainian military targets and shot down MH17 by accident is definitely the most plausible/likely scenario based on the evidence available, and significantly more likely than the idea of Russia deliberately shooting it down itself for "reasons".
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Seems the most plausible from everything I've seen - especially as they'd previous shot down and I believe tried to shoot down Ukrainian military transports flying a (somewhat) similar profile.

I am still gobsmacked though that any airline would have been flying, at any altitude, over that area at that time given the nature of the conflict and capabilities in use. Shows how naive people can be sometimes and how much money talks.
 
ubersonic said:
Considering how the Buk systems are designed to be operated by an idiot with five minutes training
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I remember an old Mark Thomas show when he got into an international Arms Trade Exhibition and one guy was very enthusiastic about their new shoulder based SAM launcher "that was designed to be easy enough to be used by a child"

It was obviously a selling point they thought was important to their clients...
 
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