ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

RoboCod said:
What about the Shia government in power at the time in Baghdad when isil started rearing their ugly heads on a larger scale, yet the Shias just shrugged them off as not really a concern... Until they got within 50 miles of Baghdad and thought they actually ought to sort their own problem out. Oh look, they were too late.

Let's continue self deprecation though because that's edgy and cool.
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"edgy and cool self-deprecation"...mmhm. Not as cool as sardonically pointing it out, clearly.

Now I could get into some kind of spiralling debate with you where we counter each other's arguments, but seriously I don't have anything I would wish to contribute to that kind of discussion. If there was a question in your post I didn't see it.
 
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RDM said:
So not that clandestine that a bunch of CT nut bloggers managed to find out about it? :)



That's not really the case though is it, the rise of ISIS is reasonably well documented, they didn't suddenly sprout from the earth.



I thought it was Assad, in that he concentrated his forces against the more moderate Syrian opposition and just let the jihadis do what they wanted to do? A tactic that worked reasonably well as ISIS didn't really like the more moderate Syrian opposition either. It also allowed Assad to stay in power as his opposition was fractured.

"It is the Wests fault" is just too simplistic and an easy throw away line, geopolitics is always going to be more complicated than that. We are damned regardless, we interfere and its all our fault, we let them get on with killing each other and it is all our fault.
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Not sure about the blogger aspect, but it was being reported in the MSM.

And if you analyse media reporting from when the Syrian group turned from "anti-Assad rebels" to "ISIS" was pretty abrupt (imo).

About who is at fault, sure just pointing the finger [like an ape/Neanderthal] at the West is kind of stupid - but lets not lie about who was bombing the utter **** out of Iraq in order to secure its oil - both sides need to be considered, especially with regard to the "greater evil" (ergo Blair talking about the moral justifications, Bush about his Crusade)...

Just my 2 cents.
 
Xordium said:
The ethical argument is clearly blown out of water when we consider the fallout of the situation and that far more harm was done than good.
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I agree on that, but its not our fault muslims despise other muslims so much they are willing to murder them in the street or their house of prayer.

B&W said:
Who cares about these points, they are irrelevant apply them to all countries equally and you'll see endless warfare on planet earth.

And morality wasn't one of those reasons sunshine. Sick of this it was right because Hussain was a evil dictator, it's never that simple.
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huh? you can apply those points to all countries equally? What are talking about. They're not irrelevant if your talking about liberating a country from a psychopath.

Random Guy said:
Not sure about the blogger aspect, but it was being reported in the MSM.

And if you analyse media reporting from when the Syrian group turned from "anti-Assad rebels" to "ISIS" was pretty abrupt (imo).

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You do realize there was multiple groups opposing assad in syria? We tried to help the FSA, unfortunately it seems ISIS have trumped all others.
 
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Johno please? said:
I agree on that, but its not our fault muslims despise other muslims so much they are willing to murder them in the street or their house of prayer.
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You are correct but we did know that beforehand. I just think history has shown time and time again it is generally better to deal with these tinpot dictators than overthrow them and place a whole country into a power vacuum.
 
Xordium said:
You are correct but we did know that beforehand. I just think history has shown time and time again it is generally better to deal with these tinpot dictators than overthrow them and place a whole country into a power vacuum.
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Yeah I'm of the opinion that the people over there need a strong hand to lead them, when you remove the person that holds the country together it all breaks down.

I remember seeing a clip of Iraq a long time ago when Saddam was toppled the locals were shouting 'BUSH BUSH' as they thought he'd be the new leader. These kinds of people will flock to the next big thing which in this case is ISIS. Same thing in Libya.

Look at China, its been a slow process changing the conciousness of the people to more western ideals over many decades. You can't just flick a switch in a Middle-Eastern dictatorship and say 'look, you're free now!'.

Before the Syria conflict started I never thought the world would be a worse place than the Afghan and Iraq wars, now look at it :/
 
The Funktopus said:
Justification issues aside, what I find unforgivable was the complete and utter lack of clear and concise objectives, and an exit strategy. Quite simply, the invasion of Iraq just wasn't thought through.

I recall a passage in a book written by Col. Tim Collins (IIRC), the then CO of the Irish Guards, who stated that during the planning of the invasion, the American general staff were solely fixated on how they'd defeat the Iraqi army. Questions from Britsh staff officers regarding 'then what?' were pretty much ignored. And the chaos of the insurgency, and now ISIS is what ensued.
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I think perhaps people were a bit naive to think there ever would be an "exit strategy". We never planned Iraq to be a short term affair and the US are setup with some permanent infrastructure there.
 
Watched an HBO documentary last night called "The Battle for Marjah". It really drove home what a stupid waste of life, money and effort the whole "war on terror" is. It follows a company of US Marines as they drive the Taliban from Marjah, then try and win the "hearts and minds" of the locals. It was excruciatingly painful to watch. I'm even in favor of taking the fight to ISIS/Taliban/etc, but by the end of the film I was stunned at just how wrong we're getting things over there.
 
Curio said:
but by the end of the film I was stunned at just how wrong we're getting things over there.
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Well not really, the Taliban were rightly removed from power in 2001 and now are in talks with the current government, this is partly because as they were pushed over the border from pakistan they were killed in their droves so they finally (hopefully) lost the will to fight.

The war on terror is basically civilization vs barbarism, so many countries in the world are involved whether they want to be or not, and we can thank countries like saudi arabia for their export of wahhabism.
 
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Curio said:
Watched an HBO documentary last night called "The Battle for Marjah". It really drove home what a stupid waste of life, money and effort the whole "war on terror" is. It follows a company of US Marines as they drive the Taliban from Marjah, then try and win the "hearts and minds" of the locals. It was excruciatingly painful to watch. I'm even in favor of taking the fight to ISIS/Taliban/etc, but by the end of the film I was stunned at just how wrong we're getting things over there.
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Haven't seen the film but from what I've seen from British troops operations on the news etc, imo the big mistake we were making was thinking winning 'hearts' was the same as winning 'hearts and minds'. An old Afghan elder practically said as such, he said we know the Taliban are a bunch of wrong'uns but we also know that after the US/British troops have gone they'll be in power so we'll support them now.
 
Johno please? said:
Well not really, the Taliban were rightly removed from power in 2001 and now are in talks with the current government, this is partly because as they were pushed over the border from pakistan they were killed in their droves so they finally (hopefully) lost the will to fight.

The war on terror is basically civilization vs barbarism, so many countries in the world are involved whether they want to be or not, and we can thank countries like saudi arabia for their export of wahhabism.
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Yeah, I have no problem with the way we basically ousted the Taliban. The problem is more that we have been unable to win the battle in the long run due to the clumsy and heavy-handed way we've treated the locals. What should have happened is that we drove the Taliban out, then the CIA / small special forces groups should have built a network of informants, then using the info provided just take out key players as and when needed. Trying to go into towns and villages to clean up Taliban with large assault groups just resulted in death and destruction and a lot of anger at the US/UK. In the documentary, for example, you have Marine Corp captains trying to be negotiators, politicians, and public works engineers once the Taliban have gone. The elders are like "FFS, we'd rather have the Taliban back!".
 
Johno please? said:
Well not really, the Taliban were rightly removed from power in 2001 and now are in talks with the current government, this is partly because as they were pushed over the border from pakistan they were killed in their droves so they finally (hopefully) lost the will to fight.

The war on terror is basically civilization vs barbarism, so many countries in the world are involved whether they want to be or not, and we can thank countries like saudi arabia for their export of wahhabism.
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You may not realise it, but your western values mean jack to the millions and millions of humans living in that part of the world. This kind of ideology ("rightly removed from power") is symptomatic of why that region is in the state it is in - certainly one of the main components of it (the other being religious extremism coupled with low economic development).

Don't really know where your background knowledge/experience/opinion lies, but if you think for one second that the military intervention of the west has improved anything over there, or any of the other foreign meddling (Pakistan, the USSR), then please, take a step back and consider re-educating yourself. This situation goes back at least to WW2.

Relevant link: http://www.businessinsider.com/asto...ryday-life-in-peaceful-kabul-2013-2?op=1&IR=T
 
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