I'm the one clutching the Hovis.
Had a superb day, but the highlight was having my photo taken with Niki Lauda in the pits
Italian Grand Prix 2010, Monza Circuit - Race 14/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
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I'm the one clutching the Hovis.
Had a superb day, but the highlight was having my photo taken with Niki Lauda in the pits
I don't know why people keep saying that, he's as good (or bad) as the others. I don't think anyone on the grid is very very good or poor at starts since the Renaults in 2006 with the launch thing.
You are dreaming, 1-2seconds?
Alonso had a higher downforce setting at spa, a much longer lap and when the rain came down he couldn't magic up 1-2 seconds of extra speed. Button still has a low downforce set up, this is infact no different to how they have ran at any other circuit, more wing than the rest of the teams countered by the F duct. This time though Hamilton hasn't gone for that option and all of a sudden it's ZOMG Button will be so much faster if it rains. Well they haven't been (Hamilton and Button) at any other gp with rain when they have been running more wing and the F duct.
How anyone can predict that when we dont know how much downforce each car generates at each wing setting is beyond me.
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Because he has lost a lot of grid positions at the start of GPs this year, especially in comparison to his team mate. I'm trying to find a stat that shows average positions won and lost at the start, can't find one yet.
Alonso's setup was for HEAVY rain. At Spa, when we had rain, parts of the track were bone dry, while others were damp. At no stage did we get a HEAVY sustained downpour.
The above scenario meant that Alonso's setup was preventing him from going super fast on even a damp track. This was the reason why I stated that Alonso (an experienced driver of the highest calibre), having screwed up so badly, should have his ability questioned as he did not need to take such a huge risk at Spa - he should've gone for a 50-50 setup, which would've meant his speed would've been comparable with the rest of the front runners.
Now tomorrow, Button has a setup such that, out of all the front runners, he is one of the slowest on the straights, but the fastest inside the actual corner/chicane. If it rains tomorrow, and the track gets soaked to a point where drivers have to use full wets, Button will be at least 1-2s/lap faster. I actually think his advantage will be greater. In damp conditions, Button will also be quicker, but not to anywhere near the 1s-2s/lap. In the wet, you need to have the maximum downforce possible.
Its unfair to compare Button to Hamilton. Hamilton is probably one of the fastest starters in F1 and invariably gains places off the line. Button is an average starter - not good, not bad, just average.
Taking a quick look at the lap charts for the opening lap of each GP, it seems to come out like this:
Bahrain - no places lost or gained
Australia - 2 lost
Malaysia - 2 gained
China - no change
Spain - no change
Monaco - out pretty much instantly thanks to the engine getting cooked
Turkey - no change
Canada - no change
Valancia - 1 gained
Britain - 6 gained
Germany - 1 lost
Hungary - 4 lost
Belgium - 3 gained
So at five rounds he's held his grid position by the end of the first lap, at four races he's gained positions (including that excellent start at Silverstone) and lost a few spots at the remainder (the worst being Hungary if we don't count his car expiring at Monaco). For Hamilton, the figures are four races holding, six races gaining and the remainder losing.
Don't hold me to those figures, the lap charts I have aren't massively clear
Caporegime
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I reckon Hamilton will pass Button very quickly easily, on the same setup he breezes past him when he's required to, Button has had virtually no ability to overtake anyone, at all, the whole season. Its crash, engine die, massive mistake and Button gains places, he's barely got passed anyone and constantly seems stuck behind cars, this race Button's going to have an even bigger straight line speed disadvantage and all the people Button usually frustrates quite badly holding them up, are likely to have an easier time getting around.
Remember the higher speed down a straight just means, potentially, getting into the slip stream sooner up a straight giving more time in the slipstream to close and get past for a corner.
All the great downforce to keep speed around a corner won't mean anything if someones taken the inside line and he still has to brake harder and go around the corner behind them at their speed.
Not sure it was the right move for Hamilton though, he's generally always faster than button with the same setup, though he was faster in all but the final session where he potentially didn't have the best track position. Theres also the simple fact that with a almost completely different setup he'll have an adjusting period, he can't throw his car into corners as hard as with f-duct + more wing, and thats where he's so aggressive and makes himself faster than Button usually.
McClarens have also, seemed at least to show a disadvantage in general in qualifying but seem much more competitive in race conditions throughout the year, so if they just aren't set up for ultra qualifying laps, but sustained pace throughout a long race, then they could be great this weekend.
I do think there should be a significant advantage in the wet for Button, if its a light or heavy, he'll pretty much have a higher downforce setup than every other car on the grid, that means later breaking into corners and higher corner speed, in the rain, thats everything. Hope to god it doesn't rain
Remember the higher speed down a straight just means, potentially, getting into the slip stream sooner up a straight giving more time in the slipstream to close and get past for a corner.
All the great downforce to keep speed around a corner won't mean anything if someones taken the inside line and he still has to brake harder and go around the corner behind them at their speed.
Not sure it was the right move for Hamilton though, he's generally always faster than button with the same setup, though he was faster in all but the final session where he potentially didn't have the best track position. Theres also the simple fact that with a almost completely different setup he'll have an adjusting period, he can't throw his car into corners as hard as with f-duct + more wing, and thats where he's so aggressive and makes himself faster than Button usually.
McClarens have also, seemed at least to show a disadvantage in general in qualifying but seem much more competitive in race conditions throughout the year, so if they just aren't set up for ultra qualifying laps, but sustained pace throughout a long race, then they could be great this weekend.
I do think there should be a significant advantage in the wet for Button, if its a light or heavy, he'll pretty much have a higher downforce setup than every other car on the grid, that means later breaking into corners and higher corner speed, in the rain, thats everything. Hope to god it doesn't rain
Drunkenmaster, I get the feeling you're not a Button fan?
I think Jenson may have made a very shrewd decision. If it does rain he's quids in, if it doesn't I think his car still has the F-Duct so I can't see him losing out too much. Sure he might have some drafting up to him but he can carry more speed through the corners and brake later meaning anyone will have a longer gap to make up on the straights and unless they're past then he can brake later. He's proven to make the right decision several times this season and let us not forget he retired at Monaco for something that wasn't his fault and that knobhead Vettel took him out at Spa. He could be sitting with anouther 20-25 points quite easily right now. Unless he has another problem he'll be on the podium.
I think Jenson may have made a very shrewd decision. If it does rain he's quids in, if it doesn't I think his car still has the F-Duct so I can't see him losing out too much. Sure he might have some drafting up to him but he can carry more speed through the corners and brake later meaning anyone will have a longer gap to make up on the straights and unless they're past then he can brake later. He's proven to make the right decision several times this season and let us not forget he retired at Monaco for something that wasn't his fault and that knobhead Vettel took him out at Spa. He could be sitting with anouther 20-25 points quite easily right now. Unless he has another problem he'll be on the podium.
Brundle specifally mentioned in yesterday's quali that Button's settings would help him off the line - I would guess thats where everyone is getting it from
To be fair Button was actuallly pretty good off the line at Spa - although he has been notibly terrible until then, that was still the last race, so he could be improving in that regard
- or it certainly felt that way until reading the post above anywayedit - the other thing is that I dont believe Button is actually bad , its more a case that he gets baulked at the 1st corner (not unfairly just the way it happens ) certainly the two races just before spa it was Massa once and Vettel another time - absolutely nothing wrong with what the other driver did it was just bad luck on JB's part, but without those (or being more level at the time) JB could easily have been ahead of his grid position by the exit
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Caporegime
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I always thought button was a good starter personally. Near enough every time he was on pole with Brawn he would keep it there and in spa he had a cracking start. Spa/Silverstone are a prime example.
Also if it wasn't for crash kid vettel in spa. Button would be going into this GP with a very strong position.
Also if it wasn't for crash kid vettel in spa. Button would be going into this GP with a very strong position.
Soldato
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Pleased for Button and nice to his barn door wing tactic worked, but wary of Vettel down in sixth. He could take out all the title contenders by the time they've exited the first chicane.
Pleased for Button and nice to his barn door wing tactic worked, but wary of Vettel down in sixth. He could take out all the title contenders by the time they've exited the first chicane.
Hopefully he'll get noobed by the midfield
I hope it rains to prove what utter nonscence that is. You and others are carrying on like you know the actual downforce figures running this extra wing gives. You don't know. Unless you care to give me the % of total downforce the Red Bull chassis generates compared to the Mclaren and how much of a % is down to the wings?
As I said this is not the first time another car has run much more wing in a race and it rains. No one this year has then found themselves 2 seconds faster. We don't know how much of the total percentage of a cars downforce is generated by that wing setting in comparison to another team to even remotely guess they would be a second faster or more.
Lastly it's a stupid gamble to run more wing on a low downforce track for rain. Simply because as soon as the first car goes off they will safety car it on the grounds that the cars don't have enough grip. Webber will cry and the race will either be run behind the safety car or red flagged. It's pointless gambling with wet set ups these days because they stop the race if a driver sweats too much.
Of course it's fair, they have the same start system. Button finds himself stuck out wide far too often.
Thanks for that, the comparison to his team mate would be interesting because Button has had the ability to make up far more places than hamilton due to usually starting further back. As I said he hasn't made up enough at the start of gps this year or usually holds position.
I hope he can beat Alonso into the first corner but as I say people are hanging hopes far too much onto a wing setting that happens at every GP.
I just had a quick look at a couple of other drivers. Of the front running guys in the championship, it appears that Mark Webber sucks the most - seven times he's finished the opening lap further behind than when he started it, and only made places twice. Vettel, by comparison, has only lost positions three times. Alonso and Massa have both lost positions three times (quite spectacularly at times as well!). Kubica has dropped back four times (all of those in early season races, maybe Renault needed a bit of time to get their starting strategy back up to scratch?).
Really? I can't remember many times where there has been a huge difference in wing levels on the grid.
I was just about to comment about exactly the same thing
Dannyjo - Im also a bit confused about your comment "its also a stupid gamble......." - Surely at the end of the day, IF this was the case it would hurt JB MORE in quali than it would in the race (amongst the top ten at least) as there is such small amount of time between the cars these days, and yet JB is on the front row (Im saying this with the thought that over a single lap there is less likely things will go wrong for everyone else, whereas with however many laps lots of other factors can come into play).
IF JB gets a good get away, and can keep consistant lap times (and no-one barges off part of his car in the first corner) JB has surely got a decent chance of winning rain or sun.....also consider that seemingly comparative to a lot of the grid the McLaren has a really decent race pace relative to quali positions (ie both McLarens are usually able to make places up during the race
I wouldnt say he is favourite by any chance but he has a pretty decent chance imo
