Poll: Italian Grand Prix 2017, Monza - Race 13/20

[howler]

The tracks aren't the issue (although Sochi is a dreary hole which should be removed ASAP), it's purely the cars not being able to follow each other. Quite why the FIA still hasn't addressed this by bringing back ground effect is anyones guess.

BTCC proves you don't need world class tracks to have great racing.

I thought I heard in the commentary that DRS is under review as to whether they will keep it, surely that will make the problem even worse

 

[GravyMonster]

Yeah, more than likely. For all the hate DRS gets it's the only thing that keeps the cars within distance of being able to attack each other.

 

[Steampunk]

I thought I heard in the commentary that DRS is under review as to whether they will keep it, surely that will make the problem even worse

Yep, DRS was introduced because high aero cars couldn't get close enough to overtake, so they had to artificially allow cars to reduce drag. Now that cars are aero focussed again, it's seems the wrong time to get rid of DRS. It's almost as if Ross Brawn has come back and is lobbying for exactly the same kinds of cars he had in "his day". If that's the case, we'll have the same processions as we had when cars were all about the aero and no one could pass anyone else because as soon as you get to another car, you lose all the aero effects that give your car half it's speed.

 

[413x]

Ha, if they get rid of Drs I expect many many people will turn off.

And yeah btcc is 100x more interesting to watch if you just want to see a fun, exciting race.

 

[LzR]

Voted a 5, nothing really happened up front and just was just a complete cruise for Ham, just like Vet used to do back a few years ago (remember all those complaints about that...?).

Yes but in those days there wasn't a car that could hardly challenge the RB yet alone pass it, the Merc doesn't have the same level of domination over today's Ferrari.

Yep, DRS was introduced because high aero cars couldn't get close enough to overtake, so they had to artificially allow cars to reduce drag. Now that cars are aero focussed again, it's seems the wrong time to get rid of DRS. It's almost as if Ross Brawn has come back and is lobbying for exactly the same kinds of cars he had in "his day". If that's the case, we'll have the same processions as we had when cars were all about the aero and no one could pass anyone else because as soon as you get to another car, you lose all the aero effects that give your car half it's speed.

Wouldn't it make sense to simply reduce aero? Less aero and more mechanical grip = closer racing?
I'm assuming though that teams would hate the current advantage their superior aero gives them over the smaller teams.

 

[Steampunk]

Wouldn't it make sense to simply reduce aero? Less aero and more mechanical grip = closer racing?
I'm assuming though that teams would hate the current advantage their superior aero gives them over the smaller teams.

Yes it would. They could allow some partial ground effects to increase mechanical grip (as other series have), but the FIA seem to be dead against it as it was something they got rid of when trying to slow cars down, and it was a contributing factor to Senna's death. They don't want to countenance it, even though I would point to the poor protection around the barrier Senna hit rather than the fact he came off the track when his suspension bottomed out (due to cold tyres) and cancelled his ground effects and thus a lot of his downforce keeping him in the high speed bend.

The problem is that all the teams wanted more aero as they saw that as a way to circumvent Mercedes engine advantage. Now that's bitten them in the butt as Mercedes have added great aero to their car in addition to their engine advantages, which in turn has increased the Mercedes downforce and allowed them to put even more power onto the track. Those changes have IMO gone in the wrong direction, as we want cars to be able to get close and over take each other, and increased aero stops that. We've even seen teams design cars to deliberately generate dirty air for the car behind, and now savvy drivers like Hamilton are using it as a weapon to win races. Why hare off into the distance and stress your engine, when you can keep your competitor close behind, overheat his engine and brakes, wear his tyres out faster thus ensuring he can't come back at you?

Ferrari only caught up due to them adopting a Mercedes style engine, and exploiting the Haas loophole to build a new aero model for their car far beyond the limitations of the rules for CFD and wind tunnel use.

 

[The_Abyss]

The tracks aren't the issue (although Sochi is a dreary hole which should be removed ASAP), it's purely the cars not being able to follow each other.

I beg to differ. Yes, the current car design is responsible for the current situation. But if there's no planned change to the cars for the next few years, then if you want to improve the show in the short term then the only means of changing it is to race at circuits where it is less of a problem.

Doing the same thing with the same problem and expecting a different outcome is madness. If the cars aren't going to change then change the circuits until they do. None of this 'we've always raced there' or 'F1 isn't the same without xxx on the calendar nonsense'. People want to see racing, not uncompetitive garbage where the commentators have to drag decades through the history books to find the last decent race at that circuit.

 

[chrcoluk]

Yes but in those days there wasn't a car that could hardly challenge the RB yet alone pass it, the Merc doesn't have the same level of domination over today's Ferrari.


Wouldn't it make sense to simply reduce aero? Less aero and more mechanical grip = closer racing?
I'm assuming though that teams would hate the current advantage their superior aero gives them over the smaller teams.

less aero is the solution, but I expect the teams are against it, and this year they wanted faster lap times so they bumped aero up.

 

[Marvin]

I beg to differ. Yes, the current car design is responsible for the current situation. But if there's no planned change to the cars for the next few years, then if you want to improve the show in the short term then the only means of changing it is to race at circuits where it is less of a problem.

Doing the same thing with the same problem and expecting a different outcome is madness. If the cars aren't going to change then change the circuits until they do. None of this 'we've always raced there' or 'F1 isn't the same without xxx on the calendar nonsense'. People want to see racing, not uncompetitive garbage where the commentators have to drag decades through the history books to find the last decent race at that circuit.

I guess that theory works except that very few of the new tracks are any good for overtaking. Monza is a track where decent overtakes have always been possible even without DRS due to slipstreaming, Spa likewise. Silverstone also usually generates a good race with overtakes without DRS. All have fast sections where a good exit from one corner can help you slipstream up behind another car 1/3 of a lap onwards. I'd go so far as to say many of the newer tracks rely on DRS to generate overtakes as the way the corners are designed means no-one gets any momentum going behind anyone else (tight 90° turns onto long straights with another tight turn at the end - not much of a slipstream opportunity) and they are too tight and one-line for corner overtakes to happen.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Having watched the radio cut from this race I have come to one conclusion - these drivers are a bunch of whiny complainers. Just get on with racing already.

 

[MooMoo444]

They should bring back monsoon tyres and raise the cars height considerably when wet. It used to work 20-30 years ago why not now?

 

[Mr Jack]

I thought I heard in the commentary that DRS is under review as to whether they will keep it, surely that will make the problem even worse

I hope so. DRS is rubbish. The only problem is that it was introduced to solve a worse problem that they seem unable or unwilling (or both) to do anything about.

 

[Slam62]

Lol, F1 has always been like this, it's not the btcc , in fact most top class motor racing has little over taking.

I'm not even sure more over taking would make it more exciting.
Refuelling definitely wouldn't, ground effect wouldn't. Possibly steal brakes and small wings with a spec engine.

F2 and gp3 are good examples of alternatives

 

[this_is_gav]

They should bring back monsoon tyres and raise the cars height considerably when wet. It used to work 20-30 years ago why not now?

Better wet weather tyres means even more spray. The aquaplaning and lack of visibility on Saturday was already on the verge of having the session stopped when Grosjean crashed. There would be just as many red flags with monsoon tyres.

Remember they never really had monsoon tyres - Bridgestone just referred to their inters as wets and wets as monsoons.

 

[mmj_uk]

They should bring back monsoon tyres and raise the cars height considerably when wet. It used to work 20-30 years ago why not now?

Most of the drivers today are barely out of nappies.

The amount of times drivers today leave the circuit if you had the old circuits with gravel traps just finishing the race would be a challenge in itself for most of todays drivers.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Better wet weather tyres means even more spray. The aquaplaning and lack of visibility on Saturday was already on the verge of having the session stopped when Grosjean crashed. There would be just as many red flags with monsoon tyres.

Remember they never really had monsoon tyres - Bridgestone just referred to their inters as wets and wets as monsoons.

Spray wasn't an issue at all, it's qualifying, the cars are miles apart. They can drive within 20m of each other in bad weather conditions, in qualifying hell add on 5 mins and tell people to leave a bit more of a time gap between than normal and there are no issues.

Deeper tires that lift the car ride height would nearly eliminate aquaplaning. Also in reality the increased spray would actually clear more water and keep the track clearer, after a lap or two the spray would actually most likely be better.

 

[LzR]

Regards aero and overtaking, or lack of it, if the FIA have their reasons for wanting it how it is, can't they introduce a standard rear wing designed to limit turbulence to the car behind?

 

[steve45]

Regards aero and overtaking, or lack of it, if the FIA have their reasons for wanting it how it is, can't they introduce a standard rear wing designed to limit turbulence to the car behind?

From what I've gathered from listening to some of the engineers talk, a large amount of the turbulent that has the most effect on following cars is created by the floor/rear diffuser.

 

[steve45]

*ignore

 

[LzR]

From what I've gathered from listening to some of the engineers talk, a large amount of the turbulent that has the most effect on following cars is created by the floor/rear diffuser.

Ah that's a shame, oh well it was good idea while it lasted