Jenson v's Lewis

[dannyjo22]

So as not to clog up the race threads with the seasons worth of who is better (even though we know it's Jenson) I thought I would start this off..

IMO Hamilton has more natural ability than Button. .

Surnama gets it. I think Lewis has more skill than Button (for Dannyjo, my definition of skill is putting a guy in a fast car and asking him to drive the balls of it). In GP2 Hamilton has shown that when the playingfield is level and he is on his game he is unstoppable.

Natural ability in any sport, is the ability to do something in that sport, without much training.

For instance, if you see what Paul Gasoigne did in 1996, Euro '96, vs Scotland. He back heeled the ball into the air, over his head to make a shot. This sort of thing can rarely be taught/practiced/trained into a sportsman. At the time, nobody in the England team could do that.

Another example is Usain Bolt. Even without much training this guy would be a fast runner. Conversely, you look at someone like Tyson Gay (who is almost as fast), but needs A LOT of training to achieve similar race times.

Hamilton - this guy can jump into any car and be fast. Very little practice is required. Gilles Villeneuve was similar. This natural ability allowed Hamilton to be fast (compared to Alonso...yes, Alonso), immediately, from Race1 onwards.

When you have huge amounts of natural ability (for that sport), you can take part in the sport and immediately compete at a high level, with very little training.

This natural ability thing interests me because Skeeter called it skill and Sunama calls it ability with little training.

My understanding was it was ability you are born with. I fail to see how you can quantify Lewis has more natural talent than Jenson when both showed extremely good natural ability from the start of their careers.

If anything Lewis was mothered and cared for more than any driver I've ever witnessed. I fail to see how anyone can seperate them on natural ability.

I see what you mean regards Gazza but to be honest we don't know how much he practiced in his youth flicking the ball up etc etc Kids always practiced show boating when I was young, headers and volleys was a daily game

By the same token you have osullivan who is always rated as the best natural talent, yet is crap when he doesn't practice. So clearly it doesn't come that naturally.

You mention Gilles as a natural talent, but this is a man who found the limits by going past them, then stitched them together to make a lap. Doesn't seem that natural to me.

Without witnessing their youth, training, coaching and so on, how can anyone on this forum state Lewis has more natural talent than X.

Sure we can debate whose better, who has had the better career but I don't think natural talent can be debated. Or does kimi have more than Lewis because after all he only did 20 races before F1?

Skill as Skeeter mentioned ok I can see that, but natural talent?

I can't understand the reasoning

I still expect Lewis to come out on top, the pirelli situation and him getting more out of the tyres is worrying me but I still think utimately over a season he should be stronger

 

[arknor]

in before

 

[Mr Men]

You would need to break down the natural ability...

Single lap pace
Race management
Driving in changing conditions
Overtaking

Probably some more, I would give Jenson 3 of them ahead of Lewis, so I think its unfair to say Lewis has more natural ability just because he is quicker over a single lap.

 

[Skeeter]

God James Allen, after god knows how many years he still could never pronounce Frome right.

But on topic, its something that is very difficult to measure. You need to be able to put drivers in an equal situation where there is no external influences or distractions. The nearest we get to things like this is the charity karting events that happen. I remeber a few years back at the Massa organised even Schumacher started halfway through the field and walked all over everyone to an easy win. That shows a high level of basic racing skill to me.

As for measuring it in F1, its so difficult because there is so much else going on above and beyond the simple skill of driving a car.

Have Button and Hamilton ever gone up against each other in something like those karting events? I only recently realised there is still that one held in Paris every year with a kart track in a stadium, but it seems full of GP2 drivers these days (F1 PR bandits holding the leashes to tight )

 

[Duke]

imo Hamilton is sligtly quicker over a single lap or stint but Button is a bit like Prost and is able to make the car work best overall.

 

[King Damager]

Maybe talent should be judged more by ones ability to adapt to a situation.

For Lewis the big example would be, was it Silverstone?, a couple of years ago where he completely demolished the rest of the pack in the rain. On inters, when the rest were spinning around on wets.

Jenson, I've noticed much more 'talent' in recent years, when he has had a good car underneath him. Canada last year was pretty impressive for example.

I'm sure there are more examples for both of them.

The problem is, I judge Jenson more harshly because I can't recall times when he did something truly spectacular in underperforming cars (I may be wrong, memory eludes me). Hamilton on the other hand has never really been in an underperforming car, so it is hard to tell.
Vettel on the other hand, however much I hate him, has shown when he was at Torro Rosso, that he could take a mid-pack car and put it on top. The man clearly has some talent.

To be honest, I really want to draw Parallels here between Senna and Prost. I feel Jenson is the more calculated individual like Prost, where as Lewis has a better feel for the car and conditions, when on form, like Senna.

Today we tend to judge Senna as the greatest, despite the fact that Prost had more world titles. I also feel like we perhaps give greater credibility to Senna sometimes because he died at the peak of his career.

I think to be honest they are two completely different drivers. So a discussion about their 'talent' is hard to quantify. I think the GP2 reference that was made is a good one, and I can't deny that when Lewis is on form he is incredibly fast. What's more, I think it was in the Ben Collins book, he said (roughly) of Lewis, that he'd never seen someone drive around looking so casual, relaxed, and slow, yet set such continual bang on fast times. I simply can't deny that Lewis is incredibly quick, there's no way I can disprove this.

On the other hand, Jensen, has had bad cars, and performed badly, now whilst I admit that that is probably down to the car, it is hard to separate them out, so there are more examples of him doing poorly.

I think, I'd generally say that Lewis has more pure talent, where as Jensen has slightly more knowledge, and wisdom, which allows him to drive more 'profferser-esque'... Ultimately I feel if Jensen had the talent that Lewis had, he would have had the same 'privelaged' greeting into the sport that Lewis did, because the talent spotters are hardly going to tell someone incredibly talented to sod off...

I think that the big issue though is that it is pretty hard to quantify, because as you've said we're lacking training and the such like.

kd

 

[Skeeter]

As much as I hate the Senna/Prost comparisons because it leads to people claiming that Hamilton and Button are mortal enemies, I think the comparison in terms of the drivers characteristics are good ones.

Button/Prost are the more calculating drivers, able to see and read the big picture and use that to overcome any deficit in pure speed.
Hamilton/Senna are the 'racers' able to drive the car faster than Button/Prost, but less able to understand the big picture.

Its not 1 bucket or the other, its a sliding scale, but there are key differences between them.

I think its worth noting as well that there is no right or wrong way to go about things, there is just the best way for a given situation, and I think its fair to say that the Hamilton approach to the Hamilton situation last year was not the best way . I can't imagine Button would have let things get that bad. In fact, he showed in 2009 that when things started to not go his way in the latter half of the season and pressure built up, he can cope very well with it and keep focused on the positives.

 

[OpenToSuggestions]

I think Hamilton has a bit more natural ability over Button, but only slightly.
However, Hamilton has a very short temper, he makes stupid mistakes and I find him a bit of a nobend for playing the ''cos I am black init' card.
Hamilton's marginally higher talent over button will not win him the championship again. Button has more patience and more consistency. Hamilton will may beat Button on a one lap race but Button curently has the edge as he doesn't go for it like a bull in a china shop. I also find Button to be a pleasant likeable man too. Someone I work with someone who has a friend who was at the same school as Lewis and I have heard he was a know-it-all and a bully at school too.

 

[arknor]

i dont think formula one really suits hamiltons style anymore he would probably murder button with refueling and pushing the car on the limit every lap of the race

 

[Skeeter]

I also find Button to be a pleasant likeable man too.

Yeah, if I had to invite one of them round for dinner, it would be Button every time.

i dont think formula one really suits hamiltons style anymore he would probably murder button with refueling and pushing the car on the limit every lap of the race

I agree. In a GP2 (especially the sprint format) race Hamilton would beat Button.

 

[Dup]

I have always been the Button fan. I think right now today he is one of the most complete drivers on the grid.

He had all the journeyman comments when the Brawn GP came to fruition but his two seasons in McLaren, a top team have proven very successful which on paper should have been a more difficult gig that driving for a mid field team. When you compare him to Mark Webber or Massa who are his respective equivalents when it comes to teams and "politics" he's really put his mark on the team and I hope he has a good few years at McLaren to come.

He's got the personality on and off the track, can win races, can bring it home in the worst conditions and plays the team game he's not just out there for himself.

I have no doubt that wheel to wheel Lewis has been the stronger driver, but I'm not so sure that the gap is that great anymore. Button really has upped his game and although his strategy has meant he was fresher and better off that the cars in front at times he can certainly stick the car where it's not meant to go and make it stick.

My big gripe about Button is that he'll never top Canada 2011. I've never been so excited during a race ever. They should release that on DVD!

 

[King Damager]

As much as I hate the Senna/Prost comparisons because it leads to people claiming that Hamilton and Button are mortal enemies, I think the comparison in terms of the drivers characteristics are good ones.

Oh yeah, of course, it's well known that they get on relatively well, unlike Senna/Prost, although I'm still not quite sure they were as mortal enemies as everyone likes to suggest... I was saying it from a purely characteristic point of view.

He had all the journeyman comments when the Brawn GP came to fruition but his two seasons in McLaren, a top team have proven very successful which on paper should have been a more difficult gig that driving for a mid field team. When you compare him to Mark Webber or Massa who are his respective equivalents when it comes to teams and "politics" he's really put his mark on the team and I hope he has a good few years at McLaren to come.

My only niggle here, is that I wouldn't necessarily say Ferrari and Mclaren's team 'politics' were the same. Ferrari, have for a long time been a one-man team. RBR is going more that way, but I think if Webber was on top they'd be supporting him more as the driver, I feel like they let them fight it out for some time at least... McLaren on the other hand I feel are much more 'we'll let our drivers race' kind of ethos, and they're not so caring about putting absolutely one driver on poll, and the other driver they don't care about too much.

kd

 

[Skeeter]

There is another question about the gap between Button and Hamilton being close now. Is it because Hamilton has got worse, or because Button has got better?

Personally I think its because Hamilton has got worse. I think Button has always had the qualities he is showing now, he just hasn't always had the machinery to prove it. When you look at Hamilton from 2007 and 2008 he looks like a completely different man with a completely different attitude. The Button from the 2004 BAR days (and his win in 2006) seems very similar to the Button we have now.

Edit: Just reading Wiki and remembered Honda being banned for 2 races in 2005. What did JB do? He jumped in the commentary box for the British TV coverage and had some decent banter with JA and MB. Could anyone imagine Hamilton doing that? Lol.

 

[HummuH1]

Button hands down for me. It's not about being fastest over one lap it's about the whole package, on and off the track. Only caveat to that is Button is at his peak, Hamilton has time to learn some lessons and improve.

Can only truly answer the question at the end of their respective careers I guess.

 

[Skeeter]

Good point. Button is performing at this level at year 13 of his F1 career, Hamilton is only at year 6.

 

[floatindolphin]

Lewis should stop living his life like an episode of home and away, stop being a whiney girl and get on with it

 

[Jay794]

Ken Block beats both lol

 

[Demon]

There is another question about the gap between Button and Hamilton being close now. Is it because Hamilton has got worse, or because Button has got better?

Personally I think its because Hamilton has got worse. I think Button has always had the qualities he is showing now, he just hasn't always had the machinery to prove it. When you look at Hamilton from 2007 and 2008 he looks like a completely different man with a completely different attitude. The Button from the 2004 BAR days (and his win in 2006) seems very similar to the Button we have now.

Edit: Just reading Wiki and remembered Honda being banned for 2 races in 2005. What did JB do? He jumped in the commentary box for the British TV coverage and had some decent banter with JA and MB. Could anyone imagine Hamilton doing that? Lol.

I can't help think that the knife edge quality of modern tyres really causes LH a load of issues and conversely JB seems very competently handling this, so I agree, I also think LH is getting worse, but I would say JB has improved..

I also don't like using Prost/Senna for comparisons, but actually it's very much looking to be something very similar..

 

[alx]

EDIT: Please delete, repetition

 

[alx]

As have other said, Hamilton is the better 'sprint' driver. He's better at wringing every last ounce of speed out of a car even when it's not performing at it's best, however I think he does struggle to see the bigger picture at times and doesn't know when to manage his pace to make the car last the distance. Mentally he can also seem to get distracted, and rather than keep calm and carry on when things go wrong he can get a bit stropy.

Button is very quick when the car suites him, has excellent race management usually and is good under pressure. I'd say his weaknesses are that sometimes he's not aggressive enough/too nice and that when the car isn't at it's best he can struggle for pace. This seems to tie in with his 'smooth' driving style people tend to claim.

Modern F1 with it's tyres that degrade quickly and no refuelling suits drivers who can manage their pace and look at the bigger picture, which is where I feel Hamilton sometimes/often falls down.