I meant we should probably venture beyond their F1 careers to see how good they are at racing? I must admit I don't know how they stack up outside of F1
Jenson v's Lewis
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I meant we should probably venture beyond their F1 careers to see how good they are at racing? I must admit I don't know how they stack up outside of F1
Caporegime
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This is what really annoys me. Hammy and to a lesser extent Vettel were sheltered throughout their careers. Hammy's first F1 drive was in a championship car. Button almost ruined his career due to his loyalty to Honda but it paid off in the end. A lot of people would have jumped a lot earlier.
Much closer than I thought on points.
Yet you are more than happy to compare lap times on different days, different track temps, with different amounts of rubber on the track.
Surely you can see the double standards in your statement. You are happy to cherry pick the bits that suit you.
Surely you know enough about racing to know that of a lap that takes 1.40m if the track is even mildly wet you would expect to lose more than 0.7s.
And for all the bit about Vettel spanking webber, YOU are the one on this forum that shouted the loudest about webber being less than average. Now though it suits your cause you conveniently forget that he has spanked a driver you used to slate on a daily basis.
Pretty much like Button and now look at you.
I meant we should probably venture beyond their F1 careers to see how good they are at racing? I must admit I don't know how they stack up outside of F1
They took very different routes to F1 at very different times over very different timescales, so its difficult to compare. Buttons route to F1 was incredibly short though, so you would assume he showed skill early on that people started to recognise.
You have to draw the line somewhere. And I draw the line at wet/dry times (ie. they are not comparable).
Now, it is possible that Vettel just happened to appear on the Top Gear challenge on the right day, on exactly the right time, to get the car in the fastest possible configuration. It is possible. However, as far as I am concerned this is one heck of a ]coincidence. Is it not more likely that after Vettel had his record breaking season, that he was just in irresistible form when he appeared on Top Gear? Is it not befitting that the driver who has won the F1 title for the past 2 years running, including a record breaking season, scored the fastest lap on Top Gear, on merit and not by some freaky coincidence (of appearing on Top Gear on exactly the right day/time)?
The public has to make that decision for themselves and opinions will vary.
I stand by my statement that Webber is average. However, so are many other drivers on the track. Once again, it just so happens (maybe this is a massive coincidence), that Vettel spanked his team-mate by a biggest margin that any other driver was able to do. It could be a coincidence/luck or it could be that Vettel has moved up a notch and is now on the verge of becoming the best.
You will notice that Vettels performances can be put down to luck/coincidence, but when it keeps happening again and again....I don't believe it can be coincidence.
During Button's playboy days I did not rate him at all. And I still wouldn't. However, once he won his title and hooked up with his Japanese girlfriend, he seems to have settled down.
1.When he won the title, my opinion of him moved up (slightly).
2. When he moved to McLaren, to go head to head with Hamilton, my opinion of him moved up again (massively).
3. When he beat Hamilton in the wet races in 2010, my opinion of him moved up (massively).
4. When he beat Hamilton in the dry races in 2011, my opinion of him moved up (massively).
5. When he beat Hamilton in the points race in 2011 (something which no driver, including Alonso, has been able to do at any Formula), my opinion of him moved up (massively).
6. When he beat Hamilton in Australia 2012 (after Hamilton got pole), my opinion of him moved up again. Especially when he had the most in-form driver - Vettel - right behind him. Vettel ate up Hamilton, but Button held his nerve. Impressive.
Are you now understanding, how gradually, Button has proved that he is evolving/improving as a driver and is going up in my estimation? Nobody could argue against Button's credentials given 6 points I have made, above.
As in any sport, a sportsman can go through good form and bad form. What separates a top sportsman, is that most of the time they are in good form. And when they hit bad form, it doesn't last long. Also, you have to remember that any sportsman, may improve (or indeed, like Hamilton, get worse), with the progression of time. The best sportsman in 2008, won't necessarily be the best sportsman in 2012 (in his particular sport). Similarly, the Button of 2008, which I berated, is not the same Button we are seeing now. There is a night and day difference.
What amazes me is that a driver in his mid-30s can show such a marked improvement.
For me, the 2 most improved drivers over the last few years are Button and Vettel. Despite this improvement however, I still believe Alonso is the standard. It's just a shame that since 2007, he has not had a car capable of winning a title. Though he has to take the blame of moving away from McLaren. IMO, he should've fought to stay in that seat and should've handled the debacle in 2007 more maturely. Had he done this, I believe he would've won the title in 2007 and 2008 (4 times WDC). Still, he has learnt from this, as we are seeing at Ferrari and he still has time to score 2-3 more WDCs.
Even though Button is now scoring more points than Hamilton?
When studying a driver you have to look at everything he is doing. F1 (qualifying, race wins, WDC wins, points total), Race of Champions positions and yes, even Top Gear (this is a unique thing because they drive a normal saloon car, with no tweaks or obvious advantage, aside from weather). I only wish that S.Loeb could be allowed to compete in F1 [S.Loeb: what is it now, 8 titles in a row? Imagine if Alonso, for instance, had won 8 titles in a row and was still at the peak of his powers....thats what Loeb is doing in Rallying].
Sorry, just to get this straight, are you genuinely arguing that the reason Vettel was 0.7s faster is because you think he is a better driver who was in better form and the fact that he had a dry track and the others were on a wet track isn't as likely to be a factor?
No he won't.
Man of Honour
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Jenson's a better driver, he's more intelligent than Lewis. Lewis may be fast, but that's not what racing is all about. A race to the finish line is exactly that - the person who gets their first. If you're saying Lewis is faster than Jenson then fair enough, in a single lap that may be the case - but we are talking about racing, not sprinting.
If Jenson is more intelligent than Lewis and can get to that finish line the quickest then he is unquestionnably the better racing car driver.
You don't get any points for sticking your car on pole on a Saturday afternoon. You can cement yourself in History, however, on Sunday afternoons - which is exactly what Jenson achieved last year over Lewis Hamilton, and this year so far.
He is the better driver. He's more tactful, he's fast, he's wiser, he's smoother, he's more intelligent, he's far cooler.
Sorry, I digressed somewhat and drifted off my point. My point being, I think a lot of people (Lewis fanboys, whatever..) seem to confuse being quick in a car with being quick as a racing driver.
If Jenson is more intelligent than Lewis and can get to that finish line the quickest then he is unquestionnably the better racing car driver.
You don't get any points for sticking your car on pole on a Saturday afternoon. You can cement yourself in History, however, on Sunday afternoons - which is exactly what Jenson achieved last year over Lewis Hamilton, and this year so far.
He is the better driver. He's more tactful, he's fast, he's wiser, he's smoother, he's more intelligent, he's far cooler.
Sorry, I digressed somewhat and drifted off my point. My point being, I think a lot of people (Lewis fanboys, whatever..) seem to confuse being quick in a car with being quick as a racing driver.
Just a recent reminder... having watched FP2 not long ago... how many times did Lewis come off the track... and how many times did Jenson? How many times do you see Jenson coming off the track ? Lewis does it regularly, either that or pushing too hard in other ways - ie. hitting people like Massa.
Sheer probability alone indicates that if you push right on the limit you're more likely than the other guy to get the fastest lap... but isn't it far easier to admire someone who knows that they can use that aggression if they wish, but choose not to and instead make sure the car gets to the finish...first?
Sheer probability alone indicates that if you push right on the limit you're more likely than the other guy to get the fastest lap... but isn't it far easier to admire someone who knows that they can use that aggression if they wish, but choose not to and instead make sure the car gets to the finish...first?
far easier to admire someone who pushs the limit and races on pure adrenaline.
i can imagine someone crashing lewis out and him going on a drive by shooting in LA.
i can imagine someone crashing button out and him grabbing his pipe and slippers
i can imagine someone crashing lewis out and him going on a drive by shooting in LA.
i can imagine someone crashing button out and him grabbing his pipe and slippers
Fair enough, I'd say leading the race by 10 seconds, then having to group up behind the safety car with Sebastian Vettel hot on your heels, then becoming the fastest man of the race all before taking a bow for the chequered flag should just about meet your criteria for "adrenaline"...
Wouldn'tyasay?