Jenson v's Lewis

Just my 2p worth, but if we were having this discussion 3 years ago I would think mostly everyone would say LH would demolish JB in any situation.

For me this still holds true, despite JB having 'grown up' 'evolved' 'stepped it up a level' since becoming F1 World Champion, albeit in a severely superior car. Last year in Canada was the first glimpse of 'genius' I got from JB. Schui, Kimi, Alonso, Lewis, Mika, Prost, Ayrton etc they all showed genius on several occasions.

So what's changed in the last 3 years. Well LH has had two seasons to forget, once because the car was poor and last year because he lost the plot - thanks Nicole ;)

So what about here and now. Well JB seems to be shining in an equal car because just like F1 is limited in every possible way from being able to engineer and outperform by rules, so LH is being hampered. Yes he is harsh on his tyres but thats because he is a real racer or immature or both. Probably the later. The days of F1 where everyone could push their car to the limit every second of every race has gone, and thats a big shame, because it allows those who are 'easy' on their tyres to shine, but stops us from witnessing true racing.

So who is better then as a racer. I guess the person who wins most, that happens to be JB so far this year. Watch this space, I have a feeling that might be about to come to an end....
 
floatindolphin said:
Lewis should stop living his life like an episode of home and away, stop being a whiney girl and get on with it
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This is what is holding him back.

He is listening to his own hype and it is making him lose focus on the driving.

If he didn't have the shirt tails Mrs, the silly GQ photos and the relentless OK magazine lifestyle he would probably be be winning everything.

Bit like Seb then.
 
How are people comparing these 2? If you look at 2011, statistically Button was better. In fact, from 2009 to the end of 2011, Button won more races and scored more points overall.
 
Skeeter said:
As for measuring it in F1, its so difficult because there is so much else going on above and beyond the simple skill of driving a car.
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I would agree with you in regards to pre-season testing -as the drivers usually do alternate days.

In a race however, they are driving in identical circumstances in identical machinary; ok so one might get a puncture, or one might have a un-balanced car but over a season these things balance out imo

Of course its unfair to say from looking at a single race that one is better than the other, but over 20 or 30....yes I think its a fair comparison.

Over a single lap undoubtedly Lewis has it in majority of conditions, however on race pace I would find it hard for anyone to challange JB wasnt better (and this includes 2010 where JB was let down a lot by bad quali performances but even when he didnt beat LH in the actual race, he was a lot closer at the end than he was at the end of lap 1).

IF JB can manage to start a lot closer to LH more often, this will show up much more obviously.

CaptainRAVE said:
Lewis is the best racer. However, in an age where the tyres have to be nursed (which imo is NOT racing), then Button is better.
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to be fair its who ever gets to teh chequered flag 1st - and set by the rules that IS F1 racing currently, whether its your opinion or not (:

Skeeter said:
There is another question about the gap between Button and Hamilton being close now. Is it because Hamilton has got worse, or because Button has got better?

Personally I think its because Hamilton has got worse..
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A little harsh imo, JB practically matched a "pretty special" LH lap in qualifying for Aus - of course 1 1/2 tenths is still some margin in one sense, but considering that is JB's main weakness, JB is improving season on season (even race by race).

Also remember JB's last two wins were in the bone dry (Suzuka and Aus) , not so long ago a lot were suggesting JB couldnt win a "non -changable" conditions race.....edit - Im not suggesting you ever said that, just a comment in general
 
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Skeeter said:
Yeah, if I had to invite one of them round for dinner, it would be Button every time.
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Surely though judging an F1 driver for his dinner conversation is like judging a porn actress on the quality of her cooking. It has no bearing on their ability to perform at their chosen profession/sport.

Who cares if Kimi can't string a decent sentence together and has almost no charm? Who cares if Button knows how to talk to people and has charisma?

At the end of the day, in an F1 driver, you are looking at his ability to score the most points, over the course of a single season. This is what made MSc so great 10 years ago. This is what makes Alonso, Vettel & Button, so great today.

Over a single lap, for me Vettel and Hamilton are joint No.1. Faster than Alonso, even. Vettel has tonnes of natural ability. An example of this was when he topped the dry times on Top Gear, by a considerable margin, in an el cheapo saloon car. Hamilton was also fast in a damp/wet track.

We've also seen Vettel and Hamilton both score heaps of pole positions. IMO it is Button's intelligence which has taught him many things about driving. And with that knowledge and experience, he is able to improve, year on year, even though he is now in his mid-30s. Hamilton lacks this intelligence is more likely to make the same mistake again and again and again (example: the crashes with Massa last year).

For me, Hamilton has the natural ability while Button has the learned ability, which is gained by doing many 1000s of laps of each track. This learned ability, is at present proving more potent when scoring points than Hamilton's gung ho racing style.

Another driver who is hugely talented is Sebastian Loeb, who is likely to be fast in any type of car he drives.
 
Tweaker said:
In fact, from 2009 to the end of 2011, Button won more races and scored more points overall.
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You can't include 2009 because Button was in a vastly superior car. I remember when BrawnGP won the first 6 out 7 races (was it?). The McLaren simply was not capable of doing that.

If you want to compare the stats, compare the 2010 and 2011 stats.
 
Bigsy said:
They're at different stages of their careers, Lewis will mature into a measurably better driver than Button.
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Hamilton came 5th in the champtionship last year. Button came 2nd.
I would argue they are near equal in ability. Hamilton just goes in there to barge his way through. Sometimes it works and he does very well, but far too often he bins it and scored no points whilst taking someone else out at the same time. if Hamilton had stopped playing bumper cars last year he could have come 2nd in the championship with ease. He had so many DNF due to agressive overtakes.
 
sunama said:
An example of this was when he topped the dry times on Top Gear, by a considerable margin, in an el cheapo saloon car. Hamilton was also fast in a damp/wet track..
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Hamilton and button both set a 1.44.7 in the wet, Vettel a 1.44.0 in the dry. I'd say in the wet over that distance in a car of that power you would expect to lose far more than .7 of a second.

Therefore in this meaningless comparison that's not even timed properly Hamilton and Button win.

sunama said:
For me, Hamilton has the natural ability while Button has the learned ability, which is gained by doing many 1000s of laps of each track. This learned ability, is at present proving more potent when scoring points than Hamilton's gung ho racing style..
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Again prove this NATURAL ability. Hamilton had far far better prep for F1 than Hamilton. He had far more learning and grooming. So you prove to me at birth Hamilton had more natural ability.

Again, so you think Kimi has more than any of them as a single world champion with 20 races to his name before F1. He had less (1000's of miles of learning) mileage than any of them. Therefore using your natural ability theory he has more than the lot of them by such a margin.
 
Surnama, there is no right or wrong, its just my opinion, and my feeling on who I would like round for dinner is just a way of highlighting the differences between them. They differ in many ways far beyond their attitude on track.

I'm also with CaptainRAVE, I'm not convinced Lewis will mature, but I'm not sure he needs to. He won one championship and very nearly won 2 whilst being young and hot headed. The environment around him needs to suite his attitude though, and at the moment it doesn't.
 
After all is said and done JB took over 100 races to win anything. Lewis took Alonso to a whole new level in his debut season.

If raw talent is what we are talking about then this just about sums it up.
 
I did just think that I do often feel like if the car doesn't suit Jensen he isn't as good with it. I hear him complaining about the car a lot more than almost all other drivers (not just lewis), in my mind he's one of the worst for complaining about issues with the car if it doesn't quite suit him...

Definitely think Nicole is having a negative impact though...

kd
 
Mr Men said:
And it would have taken Lewis 100 races to win anything in the car's Jenson had, not really a good point :D
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Your point is almost as good as mine :D

As Kimi said, his finest year in F1 was in 2009 when he had the worst Ferrari ever, why because he was consistently delivering results better than the car should have, including a win. Much like Alonso at Ferrari at present. Hence being in a rubbish car should not render you completely useless for 100 races!

Seriously though, I think JB got a very lucky break with Brawn in 2009, I doubt he would be in F1 had he not started winning something very soon to where he did.

Why do some want to compare just 2010 and 2011, if we are talking about how good a racer is we should look at their entire racing career, not just the last two years.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Hamilton and button both set a 1.44.7 in the wet, Vettel a 1.44.0 in the dry. I'd say in the wet over that distance in a car of that power you would expect to lose far more than .7 of a second.
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You cannot compare wet times with dry times.
You can compare dry times with other dry times and wet times with other wet times.

Of all the dry times, Vettel was fastest by 0.4s, which is huge.
Of the wet times, I believe Hamilton was fastest (though it is debatable just how wet those laps were, eg. a mildly moist track will yield a faster time than soaking wet track).

I've noticed that no matter how fast Vettel goes, in any vehicle, there is always an excuse by the naysayers as to why "it doesnt count".

Vettel obliterates the field in 2011. "Oh but he had the fastest car by far"

Ok fine.

Vettel beats his team-mate in 2011, by the biggest points margin of any team pairing. "Oh but Webber didnt understand the tyres".

Ok fine.

Vettel beats all other F1 drivers, on a dry track in a family saloon car (ie. no car advantage). "Oh but Hamilton's time was in the wet".

Come on guys...this is getting silly.

I'm sure if Vettel went on to win 5 titles in a row, those same people will come out with some ridiculous excuse.

For me, Vettel, is everything that I expected Hamilton to become. When Hamilton matched Alonso's points total in 2007, I was astounded to see this. I had never in my life seen the reigning World Champ (in any year), get matched by a complete rookie. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is an unprecedented feat. Since then, Hamilton improved during the next few seasons, but once Button improved and settled into the McLaren team, Hamilton just fell apart.

If Button beats Hamilton in the points race this year, I can't see how Hamilton can be considered to be a top-line driver. Also consider that every race that Button spanks Hamilton (on merit), Hamilton's confidence will take a battering. And as in any sport, confidence is VERY important for a sportsman, as it goes hand-in-hand with morale and form.

With regards to Hamilton maturing and improving - based on the last 20-odd races, I am seeing no evidence of this. The repeated collisions last year, shows that Hamilton is incapable of learning from his mistakes. Button on the other hand, does learn from his mistakes; in fact he rarely makes any mistakes.

MSc (in particular), Button, Vettel, Alonso, Prost - all rate very highly in the intelligence stakes. When you add super fast speed to intelligence, it creates a winning combination.
 
Type_R said:
Why do some want to compare just 2010 and 2011, if we are talking about how good a racer is we should look at their entire racing career, not just the last two years.
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Because that's the only time they've been in the same car.

Stats comparing Hamilton when he was at McLaren winning races and Button was in a Honda that was about as fast as a Civic Sport aren't going to give you an even remotely decent comparison.

Personally, I think judging any notion of talent or skill on completely uncontexted statistics is pointless anyway though. You can't judge something so qualitative using purely quantitative criteria, however much we might want to be able to do so.
 
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