Very much this, reinforced by the tories abhorrent use of the phrase ‘doctors in training’ to describe junior doctors. The disrespect!
Junior Doctors Strikes
- Thread starter Dr House
- Start date
A bit over 5% in may 2024. The JD deal is a two year one averaging 22% for the two years. There is no comparison however the selfish ***** may turn it down still.
Well in next 48 hours we’ll have the results on the ballot on collective action from primary care. Given the once again risible offers being bandied about I can’t see anything other than some form of action. Just simply not doing the stuff we aren’t paid to do (yet currently do pro bono) will be a big hit on the NHS. Zero good will left
22% still leaves them worse paid in 2026 than 2010. Dire.
Last edited:
Roughly an average of 5% since April 2021 so that's 15% in the last 3 years and unless anything changes it will be 5% in 2025 so 20% over 4 years.
Similar to what the Junior Doctors have just been offered.
worse accounting for inflation I assume? If so I would imagine the majority of us are
I’m sure the vast majority of people are worse off than they were a number of years ago in truth, especially when account for inflation. The austerity of the 2010’s onwards though was a hard freeze on pay for public sector, but most harsh towards the better paid which most short term were willing to suck up ‘we’re all
In this together’ however over time this bites, and bites hard and they see what their income will allow in the world and it’s nowhere near what it was when they started a long path to a career. I think the death of goodwill and willingness to go the extra mile at times due to that is probably more damaging overall than it’s possible to account for.
I’m not even sure that it’s all salvageable anymore and that the push will be to get a value for doctors for the future when things are at least semi privatised.
Any big pay offer is still from HMG’s pov a lot cheaper than had they paid fairly and invested in the NHS over the last 15 years or so. Who’s the winner?
Yes, inflation adjusted, no point in discussing these things in other terms. Pay growth for everyone was terrible due to Tory policy, but the private sector has, on average, higher pay now than it had in 2010. Even with this offer, Junior Doctors will be paid around 10% less.
I think Covid and world events had at east as much of an effect, there seems to be this idea among some people that real world pay can outstrip inflation forever, this just cannot happen and there will be good times and bad, I earn little more now in absolute terms than I did 10-15 years back so in real terms its a lot worse than 10% less
I don’t see this pay award as being linked to inflation.
In my mind it’s to keep NHS pay competitive with the wider market, not just the private sector in the U.K. but also internationally.
Doctors are quite mobile when it comes to the jobs market because the U.K. qualification and U.K. experience is recognised by a wide range of English speaking and non-English speaking countries. They are also in high demand everywhere so they almost always quality under said countries visa rules.
If pay in the wider market for doctors wasn’t substantially higher than what the NHS was offering, they absolutely wouldn’t have been offered 22% over 2 years.
And they generally have a better pension than private sector. Public sector will never pay as well as private. There are compromises. You won't get paid as much but you have a very very very secure job. Its almost impossible to fire you. Your pension will likely be better contributed to.
Also, the idea that everyone in the private sector has had inflation linked pay rises for the past nearly 20 years is utter rubbish. They are arguing from a fantasy position. A position that very few people in the rest of the population exist in. "If our pay had kept up with...". No ones has!
That may have been the case 30 years ago, but AFAIK it generally isn't now, especially as a lot of the "public sector" has been outsourced either directly or through things like "academies" for education, and a lot of the old pension schemes had their terms changed for new joiners a long time ago.
If the JDs refuse this deal and decide to strike then, IMO, they are just being unreasonable.
Yes, their pay has been eroded over the last decade but so has most others. People's lifestyles adapt to their income so, regardless of comparing it to 10 years ago, a 22% rise will have a significant improvement on their quality of life.
I will have zero sympathy or respect for the JDs if they refuse it.
Yes, their pay has been eroded over the last decade but so has most others. People's lifestyles adapt to their income so, regardless of comparing it to 10 years ago, a 22% rise will have a significant improvement on their quality of life.
I will have zero sympathy or respect for the JDs if they refuse it.
Last edited:
While I can't comment on their salaries (though GPs are ridiculously well paid) the NHS pay over 14% as standard into the pension scheme, with a 5% additional contribution from the employee, which I don't expect is matched by very many companies.
Last edited:
No, the primary effect is Tories. Compare wages in the UK in the period 2010-2019 to those on the continent and the differences are very stark. Obviously the Cost of Living crisis partially driven by the Ukraine war, but made worse by Brexit, has had a major effect, but pay growth in the UK was dire before that. Also, private sector pay has mostly recouped that rise in prices, whilst public sector hasn't - that's a choice made by the Tories.
Of courses wages should keep going up in real terms. For as long as the economy is growing, wages should also grow; and the UK would benefit a lot from having a larger share of economic production going in wages anyway - not that we're doing badly on that front, but we could do better.
I'm not talking about the actual wages or benefits, I'm talking about the change in wages. The private sector is, on average, paid more in real terms than in 2010 despite the long bad period that Tory policy induced through the 2010s; but that's not true of the public sector and it's particularly bad for Junior Doctors.
Just quoting myself as I've just looked up the current rate, and the NHS actually pay a lot more now than they did when I left in 2019 - 23.7% - source.
But the benefits package (wage and pension) should be compared as a package. I was always under the impression that the public sector had poorer pay but much better pensions than the equivalent private sector.
As @Infidelus says, employer contributions have increased by 50% since 2019. Has that happened in the private sector?
The public sector is quick to complain that their wages don't match private sector wages. Fine, let's equalise them to private sector. Shall we do the same for their pensions?
Last edited:
pay = total package including pensions, benefits and bonuses.
Thats what the numbers are based on. In terms of the public sector, the latter 2 are nonexistent in the public sector.
Last edited: