Junior Doctors Strikes

[b0rn2sk8]

It's amazing, one guy claims it gives 'significant' additional rights to unions and the other says its a total 'nothing burger'.
The Internet and modern politics summed up in one sentence.

To be fair the above poster couldn’t even articulate what was bad about the employment rights bill.

I had to actually go and look up what it was they might be referring to, do a bit of reading and form a view.

Admittedly I only spent about 3 minutes on it so I may well be dismissing it out of hand.

However, I’m not a union fanatic and I really couldn’t see anything in the summary I read of that section of the bill that caused me any concern. It wasn’t an AI summary either, it was a factual summary posted by a law firm.

 

[rojones]

Essentialy it come back to the same problem that affects all of Public Sector employment and probably a lot of private also. In that Pay hasn't kept up with some of the very basic low level inflation standards that even the government and pay review bodies have used. I did some maths a while back and NHS pay across all bands (so the AFC bands) is about 20% pay reduction as of 2025/26 pay agreement comparing back to 2005 AFC agreement. Obviously these pay scales are not JR DR ones so i can't comment on those. But yeh NHS going back to 2005 have regardless of any pay increases vs low end inflation trackers anyone in the nhs on average has as of today had a net 20% pay cut.

 

[Minstadave]

Essentialy it come back to the same problem that affects all of Public Sector employment and probably a lot of private also. In that Pay hasn't kept up with some of the very basic low level inflation standards that even the government and pay review bodies have used. I did some maths a while back and NHS pay across all bands (so the AFC bands) is about 20% pay reduction as of 2025/26 pay agreement comparing back to 2005 AFC agreement. Obviously these pay scales are not JR DR ones so i can't comment on those. But yeh NHS going back to 2005 have regardless of any pay increases vs low end inflation trackers anyone in the nhs on average has as of today had a net 20% pay cut.

Yup and they've announced no money for next year too:

'No additional funding' for 2026/27 GP pay uplifts, Streeting tells DDRB

There will be ‘no additional funding’ for pay increases for doctors in the next financial year, the health secretary has told the DDRB.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk

Endlessly subsiding the NHS through pay erosion.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Yup and they've announced no money for next year too:

'No additional funding' for 2026/27 GP pay uplifts, Streeting tells DDRB

There will be ‘no additional funding’ for pay increases for doctors in the next financial year, the health secretary has told the DDRB.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk

Endlessly subsiding the NHS through pay erosion.

The funding for next year is already budgeted for as a part of the general funding increase the NHS will get next year as set out in the spending review. That is all this means.

The NHS has been allocated an extra 2.8% in real terms (above inflation) increase every year until the end of this parliament.

Pay rises will be baked into the overall NHS budget as it is any other public and private sector business.

So in theory, if inflation is 2%, they’ll be getting 4.8% cash increase to the budget.

 

[jpaul]

Essentialy it come back to the same problem that affects all of Public Sector employment and probably a lot of private also. In that Pay hasn't kept up with some of the very basic low level inflation standards that even the government and pay review bodies have used. I did some maths a while back and NHS pay across all bands (so the AFC bands) is about 20% pay reduction as of 2025/26 pay agreement comparing back to 2005 AFC agreement. Obviously these pay scales are not JR DR ones so i can't comment on those. But yeh NHS going back to 2005 have regardless of any pay increases vs low end inflation trackers anyone in the nhs on average has as of today had a net 20% pay cut.

hasn't productivity increase, or lack of, got to play into this, to the degree that resources are not restricting it;
the inflation in value of the product - mending people, so that they can contribute economically too, so their work is worth more.

productivity linked pay-rise seems obvious solution , like that of the private sector is - our KPA's ranking ....
Starmer is obfuscating a lot of this with his AI/apps/consolidated records discourse/distraction.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

It’s delusional to think private sector pay rises are linked to productivity, they simply aren’t, it’s a flawed argument.

If that was the case no one in the private sector would have had a pay rise for 15 years because productivity has completely flatlined since 2008.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02791/

 

[200sols]

Private sector pay in real terms hasn't grown much at all since 2008. Financial crisis absolutely destroyed the UK economy and it has never recovered.

 

[Cyber-Mav]

NHS staff take the mickey with sick pay. they are off 6 months at a time with full pay. if they were on ssp then they would never get sick. hits tax payers hard.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Where is the evidence that sick pay in the NHS or wider public sector contribute to higher sickness rates?

P.S. people who are around infectious diseases all day are likely to contract said infectious disease, its like we learnt nothing during COVID.

 

[Minstadave]

NHS staff take the mickey with sick pay. they are off 6 months at a time with full pay. if they were on ssp then they would never get sick. hits tax payers hard.

Not a systemic issue with Doctors.

Sickness absence rates across the NHS

Sickness rates among doctors were less than a third of rates across the NHS as a whole in 2016/17, data released by NHS Digital show On average, hospital doctors were absent because of sickness on 1.3% of the days on which they were scheduled to work in 2016/17. Doctors in training had an …

www.bmj.com

 

[Hagar]

Where is the evidence that sick pay in the NHS or wider public sector contribute to higher sickness rates?

P.S. people who are around infectious diseases all day are likely to contract said infectious disease, its like we learnt nothing during COVID.

So why aren't the health boards providing the correct PPE for all their staff with the new found bounty provided by the government. I can see why they were caught out by covid but now they should have full cupboards and secure procurement lines.
Sickness is worse than pre covid without a deal of explanation unless the back offices are not supporting the front line.

 

[Minstadave]

So why aren't the health boards providing the correct PPE for all their staff with the new found bounty provided by the government. I can see why they were caught out by covid but now they should have full cupboards and secure procurement lines.
Sickness is worse than pre covid without a deal of explanation unless the back offices are not supporting the front line.

We cant even get teabags anymore, trusts are desperate to save any money possible regardless of impact on productivity or efficiency.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

But again, where is the evidence that the sick pay causes additional sickness.

Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

One thing a lot of people miss is good employers in the private sector where equivalent level professionals work also offer similar benefits. The public sector also employs considerably more disabled people as a proportion of its workforce than the private sector, this is a good thing.

It’s almost like the public sector sets the standards that the private sector should be striving to achieve.

@hager you can wear all the PPE in the world but it doesn’t fully stop the contraction of infection. In reality it’s not practical for staff to wear full PPE 24/7, as we saw in Covid it massively reduces productivity and frankly just isn’t very pleasant.

Not to mention plenty of patients are contagious before they are symptomatic.

 

[Malevolence]

Not to mention plenty of patients are contagious before they are symptomatic.

And then you get the ones where you've spent a good hour carting them between CT and x-ray only to be informed by a passing Dr, that just happened to overhear the patient's diagnosis, that the patient has TB. And not only has TB but is aspirating blood and has a nasal canula in-situ w/ 10l O2. Personally, if a patient I'm with is undiagnosed, is coughing or has some form of respiratory issue I always wear a mask and I always wear gloves when moving a bed or a trolley (even empty ones as despite them being cleaned between patients, you just don't know if somebody has walked past and coughed on it).

 

[VeNT]

We cant even get teabags anymore, trusts are desperate to save any money possible regardless of impact on productivity or efficiency.

things I can't get anymore at work without sign off of the head of server (band 9)
post-its
pens
notebooks
_paper_ for the printer
meanwhile we've a consultant from some firm on half a million for 6 months work.

Currently the trust is expected to save 42 million quid this year, that's approx 10% of total budget, or 30% of the wage bill.
guess which one the consultant has suggested we cut first.

it's become really simple. either we do less stuff or you're going to have to give the NHS more money.

 

[VeNT]

But again, where is the evidence that the sick pay causes additional sickness.

Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

One thing a lot of people miss is good employers in the private sector where equivalent level professionals work also offer similar benefits. The public sector also employs considerably more disabled people as a proportion of its workforce than the private sector, this is a good thing.

It’s almost like the public sector sets the standards that the private sector should be striving to achieve.

@hager you can wear all the PPE in the world but it doesn’t fully stop the contraction of infection. In reality it’s not practical for staff to wear full PPE 24/7, as we saw in Covid it massively reduces productivity and frankly just isn’t very pleasant.

Not to mention plenty of patients are contagious before they are symptomatic.

from my experience long term sick is _super rare_ in the nhs. staff don't like being off, often having to be sent home when they come in sick.
there's occasions, people who've been injured at work etc where it would cost the trust a bomb in ET should they let them go, but even then, it's only 6 months before you drop to half pay.
I think I encounter maybe 1 person a year who it feels like they are taking the **** with being off sick, but it's hard to tell as often they are talking about mental health stuff and the **** that elder care staff are put through would make you violent.

 

[tonys]

Where is the evidence that sick pay in the NHS or wider public sector contribute to higher sickness rates?

P.S. people who are around infectious diseases all day are likely to contract said infectious disease, its like we learnt nothing during COVID.

Not all patients in hospitals are infectious and if they were, the staff should be wearing PPE.

 

[ICDP]

As an NHS worker from band 4 to band 8a for over 26 years, long term sick is incredibly rare and the vast majority of those that are on it have genuine mental and or physical conditions. The sick leave in my department is less than the trust average. You get the very odd abuser of the system but it is super rare and they tend to be weeded out by the system if you are a manager who stick to process.

It’s the usual daily heil reading nonsense that NHS workers regularly abuse sick leave.

I have sympathy for the junior doctors pay erosion, but it has happened to all of us in the NHS. So them asking for another 28% pay rise is basically saying “screw you” to the rest of us, because the only way it could be funded is to stop pay increases for other NHS workers. I know it will take at least 10 years to get us parity, but it has to be realistic and affordable.

 

[jpaul]

If that was the case no one in the private sector would have had a pay rise for 15 years because productivity has completely flatlined since 2008.

exactly there has also been lack of investment versus other countries post crash - but nonetheless if processes/techniques haven't improved so that individuals can
demonstrate their efficiency relative to piers do they deserve same increase.
you get evaluated by that in the private sector (all american companies I've worked for) and it's not just a gravy train like the civil service which obviously has that reputation in spades;
equally not unionized in that private sector.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

exactly there has also been lack of investment versus other countries post crash - but nonetheless if processes/techniques haven't improved so that individuals can
demonstrate their efficiency relative to piers do they deserve same increase.
you get evaluated by that in the private sector (all american companies I've worked for) and it's not just a gravy train like the civil service which obviously has that reputation in spades;
equally not unionized in that private sector.

For the amount of time you spend watching YouTube and googling stuff, you do post some utter tripe.

You get evaluated in the public sector, just because you don’t get performance related pay, that doesn’t mean performance management is not a thing, it’s just all stick and no carrot because that’s the only tool management in the public sector have.

Likewise how is the civil service a ‘gravy train’?

Ironically the civil service is one of the only bits of the public sector that doesn’t have a pay review body and is completely at the whim of treasury and cabinet office ministers when it comes to pay. They consistently get lower pay rises than other parts of the public sector and seldom go on strike.

Do you even know what the civil service does any why there are ‘so many of them’?

Of the ~500k civil servants, the vast majority sit in 5 departments, the vast majority of staff are dealing directly with the public to deliver a service. Likewise, phrases like ‘prison officer’ and ‘well paid’ do not usually feature in the same sentence. More typically it’s ‘prison officer’ and ‘job from hell’.

It’s not necessarily a cushy 9-5 either, many civil servants work shifts and/or weekends because things like law enforcement don’t stop at 5pm on a Friday.

It’s almost like the telegraph has told you what your opinion should be and you’ve swallowed it hook like and sinker.