Junior Doctors Strikes

[Kenai]

The people who dont want to be as fully qualified as possible before taking on the responsibility of human lives, but wants all the rewards and benefits of such a thing.

Who doesn't want to be fully qualified? You were calling people entitled for not wanting to do unpaid work. Doing unpaid work shouldn't be a fundamental requirement of completing a medical residency.

"juniors" on 60K+ says it all.

These are people with extensive formal qualifications and often many years of experience, that pay is entirely justified - you're talking about them like they're fresh intake trainees or something.

Potentially non professionals in here telling professionals to lower their standards.... Incredible.

Who's talking about lowering standards?

If we're talking about responsibility for human lives, maybe the first place to start is considering whether it's a good idea to be encouraging the people bearing that direct responsibility to do a load of extra unpaid work?

 

[sidimmu]

Or rather, "know your worth" as the millennials and Gen-Z would say

And at this moment in time they are Juniors. May as well class them as "in training".
Juniors already on incredible pay packet and benefits.

As always, people want more money for less work and less responsibility.

 

[sidimmu]

Who doesn't want to be fully qualified? You were calling people entitled for not wanting to do unpaid work. Doing unpaid work shouldn't be a fundamental requirement of completing a medical residency.

So all the doctors above just have to get on with it and all the juniors can get a sweet time now?
No, its part of the deal, you get a much better wage than 80% of the population and still classed as a junior, do some work, get qualified and earn even more with more benefits.

Its entitlement to not want to do what your peers and colleagues have done, but want the same result and same reward.

 

[tamzzy]

As always, people want more money for less work and less responsibility.

is it really less work and less responsibility though, really?
they are already, putting in the time and effort etc

Its entitlement to not want to do what your peers and colleagues have done, but want the same result and same reward.

if no one changed the status quo we'd still be living in caves

 

[Kenai]

So all the doctors above just have to get on with it and all the juniors can get a sweet time now?
No, its part of the deal, you get a much better wage than 80% of the population and still classed as a junior, do some work, get qualified and earn even more with more benefits.

Its entitlement to not want to do what your peers and colleagues have done, but want the same result and same reward.

It's not entitlement to expect to be paid for your work, entitlement is expecting people to work for free because you think they should in order to justify progressing their career and because someone else decided to do it before them.

Just because we have a historical expectation that you should bend over and take it without lube whilst you're younger in order to secure some career success later on, doesn't make it right.

 

[sidimmu]

is it really less work and less responsibility though, really?
they are already, putting in the time and effort etc

Evidently yes it is, because if you dont want to do the hours, you're going to walk off and go home.
Yes you'll do the work another time but you'll be known to be less responsible.

It's not entitlement to expect to be paid for your work, entitlement is expecting people to work for free because you think they should in order to justify progressing their career and because someone else decided to do it before them.

You can be a junior for longer then.
You do the unpaid stuff to get to the big goal and reward quicker, or are you forgetting the benefits they receive once completed?

 

[NVP]

See children, this is what we call being overly opinionated yet under informed.

 

[tamzzy]

Evidently yes it is, because if you dont want to do the hours, you're going to walk off and go home.
Yes you'll do the work another time but you'll be known to be less responsible.

that's a lot of mental gymastics you are doing there to justify your statement

 

[sidimmu]

People want professional job with incredible perks, but wont undertake a bit of sacrifice to get it?

Sucks to be them as well they are going to be disappointed, whilst the rest of us get on with it, become knowledgeable, responsible and receive the reward, sounds fair to me.

 

[Devilman]

People want professional job with incredible perks, but wont undertake a bit of sacrifice to get it?

Sucks to be them as well they are going to be disappointed, whilst the rest of us get on with it, become knowledgeable, responsible and receive the reward, sounds fair to me.

People want professional healthcare but won't pay an appropriate amount of tax to fund it.

 

[Kenai]

You can be a junior for longer then.
You do the unpaid stuff to get to the big goal and reward quicker, or are you forgetting the benefits they receive once completed?

The benefits they receive after their residency are the reward for the increased responsibility and the work they do after the residency, not a reward for being exploited during their residency.

 

[Dr House]

And at this moment in time they are Juniors. May as well class them as "in training".
Juniors already on incredible pay packet and benefits.

As always, people want more money for less work and less responsibility.

They are not really junior as a group. They are doctors who are not consultants. You might reasonably describe those in years 1 to 4 as junior, but from year 5 onwards they are senior decision makers with a great deal of clinical responsibility. It is also important to remember that many work for years in trust grade or specialty doctor roles and never become consultants, despite having 10 to 20 years of experience. Calling all of them “junior” is misleading.

Good luck to them.

 

[sidimmu]

The benefits they receive after their residency are the reward for the increased responsibility and the work they do after the residency, not a reward for being exploited during their residency.

And their reward for completing the residency is being able to go onto that pay and benefit package.

You might reasonably describe those in years 1 to 4 as junior, but from year 5 onwards they are senior decision makers with a great deal of clinical responsibility. It is also important to remember that many work for years in trust grade or specialty doctor roles and never become consultants, despite having 10 to 20 years of experience. Calling all of them “junior” is misleading.

Thank you for a sensible reply.
I agree, maybe there needs to be different definitions for those at different stages, as calling them all juniors clearly does not work.

 

[Kenai]

And their reward for completing the residency is being able to go onto that pay and benefit package.

And undertaking additional work for free is not (or rather should not be) a requirement of completing a residency.

 

[NVP]

I agree, maybe there needs to be different definitions for those at different stages, as calling them all juniors clearly does not work.

...or maybe read up on something instead of assuming you're informed enough to voice what is a daft perspective to most.

 

[sidimmu]

maybe read up on something instead of assuming you're informed enough to voice what is a daft perspective to most.

Its misleading, evidently.
Clearly needs to be broken down further rather than classing all as the same for however many years it is.

And undertaking additional work for free is not (or rather should not be) a requirement of completing a residency.

Real world shows otherwise, they agreed to it, known about it before entry, get on with it or dont reap reward, simples.

 

[tamzzy]

Real world shows otherwise, they agreed to it, known about it before entry, get on with it or dont reap reward, simples.

outside of the strikes, in the real world, JDs still do unpaid time do they not?

 

[Minstadave]

As calling them all juniors clearly does not work.

Theyre not called Juniors any more for this exact reason.

The reward for being underpaid during their resident years is becoming a consultant and being underpaid for the rest of their careers relative to every other developed country, if they can get a consultant post which is not easy and rapidly getting harder, lucky them!

 

[NVP]

Its misleading

LOL

Do you also get confused with the words "secretary", or "vice president"

 

[sidimmu]

Do you also get confused with the words "secretary", or "vice president"

Its misleading to apply it to 8 years worth of diff quality of doctors, clearly mentioned earlier.

I am now wondering why I took you off of ignore, clearly a mistake by myself. Least I wont go blaming everyone else for something I chose to do...

Theyre not called Juniors any more for this exact reason.

Thanks, you're the only one who's said this so far.