Good point and when you factor in that no team has ever retained the Champions League not even the all mighty Barcelona it puts into context just how hard it is to win the Champions League
Just how good were / are Utd really?
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Good point and when you factor in that no team has ever retained the Champions League not even the all mighty Barcelona it puts into context just how hard it is to win the Champions League
Caporegime
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Well a good time to be discussing Fergie being disappointing in Europe 
Soldato
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Injuries.
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Well a good time to be discussing Fergie being disappointing in Europe
i could tell you that im from the future and knew the bilbao result would happen. but important not yet i could still see what would happen here.
the team got shown up for (again) being packed out with one dimensional players against a team who could all play football. Basic things like control, passing tackling yes we have players who can do these things...but have a tendency to be able to do only one of those things well...
As you said shami what big victories have we had lately? not many but my point earlier was that even when we won in 99 we were quite fortunate and didn't really deserve to win on our performance. again in 2008 it was a freak penalty miss that gave us the cup. We didn't win any final as the dominant force yet when we lost the finals we got crushed both times.
the thing is teams like bayer or ajax or bilbao havent had a fraction of the funds to build a team like we have had the resources to do over the past 10 years. we've spent so much and they have spent so little in comparison but made us look ridiculously bad.
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I think this needs a bit of perspective.
Manchester United have been absolutely magnificent for the last 20 odd years.
I started supporting them in the mid 80s when i was old enough to understand what football was about. At that point Liverpool were incredible and we hadnt won the league for 20 years.
If you look back at clubs dominating the league then the Liverpool dynasty from the mid 70s through to 1990 springs to mind, domestically i think we have bettered that and that stood out by miles over all other domestic clubs.
Ive gone from the age of about 10 to the present day and every single season ive watched my team realistically challenge for the title. There cant be many fans of clubs who can say that. In that time we have seen off Blackburn spending untold sums, an Arsenal side that no-one could beat, a Chelsea side with bottomless wealth and the best new manager in the world at the time and now we are up against a City owner who is redefining spending money. Each time we are written off and each time a new side is built, new heros are born and new trophies are won.
I suspect it will be when we are all old and gray, when Sir Alex is long gone and United are not a force (as will inevitably happen at some point) that we will look back over the last 20 years and realise just what a phenomenal achivement it all was. It may take the passage of time for that to happen though.
Manchester United have been absolutely magnificent for the last 20 odd years.
I started supporting them in the mid 80s when i was old enough to understand what football was about. At that point Liverpool were incredible and we hadnt won the league for 20 years.
If you look back at clubs dominating the league then the Liverpool dynasty from the mid 70s through to 1990 springs to mind, domestically i think we have bettered that and that stood out by miles over all other domestic clubs.
Ive gone from the age of about 10 to the present day and every single season ive watched my team realistically challenge for the title. There cant be many fans of clubs who can say that. In that time we have seen off Blackburn spending untold sums, an Arsenal side that no-one could beat, a Chelsea side with bottomless wealth and the best new manager in the world at the time and now we are up against a City owner who is redefining spending money. Each time we are written off and each time a new side is built, new heros are born and new trophies are won.
I suspect it will be when we are all old and gray, when Sir Alex is long gone and United are not a force (as will inevitably happen at some point) that we will look back over the last 20 years and realise just what a phenomenal achivement it all was. It may take the passage of time for that to happen though.
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Don't get me wrong, i Agree to an extent that remaining competitive for so long is fantastic. But that isn't what important saying. the quality of domestic competition can vary quite wildly from one year to the next as we have seen.
but if you only aim to beat your domestic rivals and forgetabout the continent then you will only have that kind of success in a domestic competition. we can see this as all those premier leagues have led to just 2x champions leagues in 20 years and as i pointed out one was arguably a lucky result and the other was well quite lucky too.
but if you only aim to beat your domestic rivals and forgetabout the continent then you will only have that kind of success in a domestic competition. we can see this as all those premier leagues have led to just 2x champions leagues in 20 years and as i pointed out one was arguably a lucky result and the other was well quite lucky too.
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I think there is equally a danger of belittling achievement. For all that 99 could be described as "lucky" you could also look at the calibre of team beaten along the way and also say that the team showed huge heart to get the two goals. All this while playing at a level that saw the domestic league won on the last day and the FA cup won as well. This is the very model of consistancy in my book.
I think SAF has admitted that he felt he underachieved in Europe. Certainly in the early years there was a huge learning curve - i remember us being beaten by the likes of Gothenburg and the likes of Simon Davies (who?) playing in Europe yet not domestically because of the 3 foreigner/assimilated player rule.
However in recent years id say we have been as consistant as any. It is after all a cup competition and small margins can play a big role. Its all "ifs" and "buts" but id say had we played anyone but Barca in the two finals we would have 2 more CLs in the bag and arguably were it not for a sending off we should have comfortably beaten Bayern the season they put us out. Of course a miss is as good as a mile as they say - im not saying we deserved any more than we got, im just saying its small margins.
I dont think Barca should really be the benchmark of success or failure. You could take the top 9 teams through history and make them play Barca and they could equally come up short.
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well the champions league is a completely different ball game to the premier league, english teams have only won 2 cl's in the last 10 years, which isn't a lot really when u look at the squads united arsenal and chelsea had england has underperformed in the champions league i think they should have had atleast double the amount they have won.
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but having won domestic honours more often you'd expect us to do more. don't underestimate the learning curve either. chelsea had to go through what we went through in the 90s learning the game and how to play. they got to a final dont forget. same with how arsenal did and how city have been doing.
I guarantee had the shoe been on the other foot you wouldn't be saying the same. Terry's missed penalty was no more of a freak than Ronaldo's.
As for big victories if domestic ones don't count then other than the two against us how many big victories have Barcelona had? It seems the definition of big victories consist solely of Champions League final games.
Suffice to say ignoring domestic victories I'd say winning 7-1 against Roma, 2-0 away from home against the same opposition a year later and 4-0 against Milan in 2010 all come under the bracket of very impressive European victories.
Don't let facts get in the way of things
Go back to 2004 when Chelsea spent hundreds of millions on their team and Man Utd got knocked out of the UCL in the group stage not one person saw anything other than Chelsea domination for years to come and yet remind me how many titles did that Chelsea team win? 2 is the answer. We not only matched them we overtook them winning 3 on the bounce and bar 2 points difference we would be now looking at 5 on the row (with us very much on the way to a 6th)
Like I said this thread is nothing more than a moan about how well we've done in Europe rather than a look at things in it's totality. Barcelona may well be the best club side the world has ever seen but will Guardiola still be around in 3 or 4 years time ready to build another great Barcelona side? I highly doubt it. Dominance in football comes in cycles purely down to Fergie he's not only been able to dominate with one team but he's rebuilt and continued success with 2 or 3 sides now that kind of success is unmatched in the modern game.
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Don't let facts get in the way of things
Go back to 2004 when Chelsea spent hundreds of millions on their team and Man Utd got knocked out of the UCL in the group stage not one person saw anything other than Chelsea domination for years to come and yet remind me how many titles did that Chelsea team win? 2 is the answer. We not only matched them we overtook them winning 3 on the bounce and bar 2 points difference we would be now looking at 5 on the row (with us very much on the way to a 6th)
Like I said this thread is nothing more than a moan about how well we've done in Europe rather than a look at things in it's totality. Barcelona may well be the best club side the world has ever seen but will Guardiola still be around in 3 or 4 years time ready to build another great Barcelona side? I highly doubt it. Dominance in football comes in cycles purely down to Fergie he's not only been able to dominate with one team but he's rebuilt and continued success with 2 or 3 sides now that kind of success is unmatched in the modern game.
Exactly. In the last 20 years only Barca and Real have won more CLs than United, neither of whom have been as consistent in Europe as United in terms of progression to the final stages. Indeed, looking back at it there are plenty of years when with a bit of luck United could have won another CL title. Even ignoring the two finals we lost, I look back at 2004 and 1997 as two years were we were unlucky not to progress further (2004 especially).
You can't say we have underperformed in Europe when, comparatively, the majority of top European sides have done worse. The reality is, had we performed any better we would have been rewriting the history books. Falling short of that mark cannot be deemed a failure.
And with that...
I personally think its a bit of everything
1) Utd's general dominance over the league for the past 18/19 seaons (even if Utd didnt win all of them), as well as performing reasonably well in natioanal cups, yet this season they went out of the league cup very early (at home, which was a bit of a shock) and then got beaten in dying minutes of an FA Cup match in a game Utd dominated away to an ancient foe.
Our dominance here has probably kept the purse strings relatively tied (compared to those around us - either in europe or in EPL , dont forget even Barca spent £30m or so on Sanchez when they hardly needed to) because SAF has been SO successful in England
2) Early exit from CL in a group that shouldnt have been challanging for a team that has got to three finals in 4 seasons, followed shortly after by exit from Europa league which Utd didnt perform well in (but were fairly beaten at least once)
3) Probably compounded by Arsenal and Chelsea (the two most likely challangers in the last 10-15 years certainly) going through tumultious times themselves, so it sort of goes a little unnoticed when all of the EPL sides start to slip in standards in relation to Europe.
For National competitions I think Utd have a brilliant squad, and baring a few selection quirks on Fergie's part / injury issues at the time - Utd are doing excellently. However in Europe, Utd's squad is severely lacking, even with our 1st choice 1st XI we struggled (admittedly we didnt have Cleverley or Scholes for majority of CL group games) .....and its questionable who Utd's first choice RB is anyway. LB has a question over it also, as Evra has been found wanting on a few occasions this season, and this is just down to his age/the high energy game Utd are used to from him.
Admittedly over a shorter period (due to injury) but Valencia has been FAR more consistant than Nani this season, occasionally the latter can knock your socks off with something outstanding but all too frequently this year he has disappeared in games ....admittedly not helped by being on the left but he has disappeared on the right sometimes too (and Young has done the same).
If Utd can get through a season without major long term injuries in 12/13 season and hopefully add a couple of top quality midfielders to the mix this summer (with PIG, Berba and Owen at the very least leaving, there should be squad places available) even IF Utd win the 11/12 league ....and its stil a big IF imo, next few seasons can be very successful indeed ....especially if SAF /the club can bring through a few of the promising youngsters from the reserves/youth team
1) Utd's general dominance over the league for the past 18/19 seaons (even if Utd didnt win all of them), as well as performing reasonably well in natioanal cups, yet this season they went out of the league cup very early (at home, which was a bit of a shock) and then got beaten in dying minutes of an FA Cup match in a game Utd dominated away to an ancient foe.
Our dominance here has probably kept the purse strings relatively tied (compared to those around us - either in europe or in EPL , dont forget even Barca spent £30m or so on Sanchez when they hardly needed to) because SAF has been SO successful in England
2) Early exit from CL in a group that shouldnt have been challanging for a team that has got to three finals in 4 seasons, followed shortly after by exit from Europa league which Utd didnt perform well in (but were fairly beaten at least once)
3) Probably compounded by Arsenal and Chelsea (the two most likely challangers in the last 10-15 years certainly) going through tumultious times themselves, so it sort of goes a little unnoticed when all of the EPL sides start to slip in standards in relation to Europe.
For National competitions I think Utd have a brilliant squad, and baring a few selection quirks on Fergie's part / injury issues at the time - Utd are doing excellently. However in Europe, Utd's squad is severely lacking, even with our 1st choice 1st XI we struggled (admittedly we didnt have Cleverley or Scholes for majority of CL group games) .....and its questionable who Utd's first choice RB is anyway. LB has a question over it also, as Evra has been found wanting on a few occasions this season, and this is just down to his age/the high energy game Utd are used to from him.
Admittedly over a shorter period (due to injury) but Valencia has been FAR more consistant than Nani this season, occasionally the latter can knock your socks off with something outstanding but all too frequently this year he has disappeared in games ....admittedly not helped by being on the left but he has disappeared on the right sometimes too (and Young has done the same).
If Utd can get through a season without major long term injuries in 12/13 season and hopefully add a couple of top quality midfielders to the mix this summer (with PIG, Berba and Owen at the very least leaving, there should be squad places available) even IF Utd win the 11/12 league ....and its stil a big IF imo, next few seasons can be very successful indeed ....especially if SAF /the club can bring through a few of the promising youngsters from the reserves/youth team
Difficult to say, if you look at teams who have done better than MU in the CL over a similar time period you are basically left with Barcelona and Real Madrid who won it 3 times (also Milan have 3 CL titles but scattered over a long period). The recent Barcelona team and the RM side at the turn of the century were both genuinely great teams with some of the greatest talents in my lifetime representing them so I don't see much shame in playing second fiddle to them.
Fact is winning more than 2 CL titles is an extremely tough ask and not having done so doesn't really preclude a team/club from being considered great. The Arsenal side of ~2002-2005 was IMHO a great side and they didn't win anything in Europe.
As mentioned maybe at times MU have been greater than the sum of their parts, in particular how they managed to win the league in the middle parts of the last decade (2003 over an irresistable Arsenal team who started 2002-3 like a train and in 2007 over a Chelsea outfit who'd finished with over 90pts the previous two seasons and had just added two superstars in Shevchenko & Ballack).
Fact is winning more than 2 CL titles is an extremely tough ask and not having done so doesn't really preclude a team/club from being considered great. The Arsenal side of ~2002-2005 was IMHO a great side and they didn't win anything in Europe.
As mentioned maybe at times MU have been greater than the sum of their parts, in particular how they managed to win the league in the middle parts of the last decade (2003 over an irresistable Arsenal team who started 2002-3 like a train and in 2007 over a Chelsea outfit who'd finished with over 90pts the previous two seasons and had just added two superstars in Shevchenko & Ballack).
Stars maybe, but past their prime (and Shev hardly suited the rapid pace of the EPL), although the team as a whole was excellent at that time no doubt
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Exactly. In the last 20 years only Barca and Real have won more CLs than United, neither of whom have been as consistent in Europe as United in terms of progression to the final stages. Indeed, looking back at it there are plenty of years when with a bit of luck United could have won another CL title. Even ignoring the two finals we lost, I look back at 2004 and 1997 as two years were we were unlucky not to progress further (2004 especially).
You can't say we have underperformed in Europe when, comparatively, the majority of top European sides have done worse. The reality is, had we performed any better we would have been rewriting the history books. Falling short of that mark cannot be deemed a failure.
And with that...
But if you look at barca/real social/political situation you can begin to understand this.
if barca get dumped out in the group stages, or by porto, or leverkusen then the manager gets fired. This then requires time to rebuild, not to mention the presidential elections upsetting the continuity...
if you consider the net spend by utd over this time period it must surely match if not exceed 99% of teams other than barca and real...this must also be considered.
If you accept that the '99 squad was by and large chance (it was if you consider we havent had any such talented youth come through since then, let alone as a group), and then 2008 us being so good because we had the best/second best player in our ranks (ronaldo) and since he left we have not been nearly as competetive compared to the big boys we can see that the achievements came about due to a bit of luck, or a random player...
When infact we had had so many years of potential consistency to build around (90s team plus peripherals) without being upset by manager sackings or presidential elections combined with our spend, then the issue comes to light more visibly.
dont think SAF's net spend is anything remarkable at all - I think it was mentioned in commentary recently that Stoke have even spent more than SAF in the last 5 -6 years
(something like that anyway)
Of course over the years he has been there the figure is going to appear huge, but I would be highly surprised if it was anything astronomic as you imply , even allowing for all the Djemba - Djemba / Kleberson's that cost Utd a pretty penny and didnt ammount to much (or even De Leat more recently, although I seem to recall he was reasonably cheap).
It took SAF two seasons + to spend the Ronaldo money and even a 1/3 of that spend was replacing No1 gk lol (not exactly a whimsical /non--essential buy)
(something like that anyway)
Of course over the years he has been there the figure is going to appear huge, but I would be highly surprised if it was anything astronomic as you imply , even allowing for all the Djemba - Djemba / Kleberson's that cost Utd a pretty penny and didnt ammount to much (or even De Leat more recently, although I seem to recall he was reasonably cheap).
It took SAF two seasons + to spend the Ronaldo money and even a 1/3 of that spend was replacing No1 gk lol (not exactly a whimsical /non--essential buy)