Just how good were / are Utd really?

The Running Man said:
If you accept that the '99 squad was by and large chance (it was if you consider we havent had any such talented youth come through since then, let alone as a group), and then 2008 us being so good because we had the best/second best player in our ranks (ronaldo) and since he left we have not been nearly as competetive compared to the big boys we can see that the achievements came about due to a bit of luck, or a random player...
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I'm not sure that I do accept that premise, you've got to keep putting yourself in positions where you can win it and whatever you think about Sir Alex he's been able to guide his team into the games where they've got a chance to win honours. He can't always ensure they win it purely by the force of his will but if you're consistently getting to finals (not to forget winning leagues) then you've got think he's doing something right as once you're there you've got a chance of winning the damn thing. If he was consistently spending millions and always going out before the quarter finals then sure he's probably underachieving but I think it's not unreasonable to regard this year as an aberration given the form over the past five years.

I've said it before and will no doubt say it again if what Sir Alex has done is "luck" then there's hundreds of managers who dream of having such luck. If he'd just managed to make one team hugely successful once then you might write that off as luck but he hasn't, he's made Man Utd consistently perform well and before that he took Aberdeen and got them to win the league as well as also winning in Europe. Maybe it's only comparatively recently that he has found consistency in Europe for Man Utd but I think you risk trivialising his achievements domestically - if you've got to the point where not winning your domestic league plus another cup or two is considered underachieving then I really think you need to step back and take it in perspective.

For the record I'm not a Man Utd fan in any particular regard, I'm happy to see them do well however as regardless of Sir Alex's flaws as a person and as a manager he is quite remarkable for what he has achieved and his longevity. I suspect that it'll be once he goes that you may appreciate what he has done more as there's a good chance that any period of transition won't be especially comfortable and the trophies that you appear to take for granted will not be as forthcoming.
 
Strange that you discount bad luck as a factor to why Man Utd haven't won more European trophies Nick, when you're so quick to assign good fortune to the reason you have won the ones you did.
 
The Running Man said:
But if you look at barca/real social/political situation you can begin to understand this.

if barca get dumped out in the group stages, or by porto, or leverkusen then the manager gets fired. This then requires time to rebuild, not to mention the presidential elections upsetting the continuity...
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So what you're saying is you would rather a series of massive peaks and troughs (and financial disasters) rather than unbelievable consistency with far more than our fair share of trophies along the way? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. For me, it is very easy to be successful in the short term and put all your squad and resources towards one objective.

Seeing things in this way, players seem to age very slowly because you are only looking one season ahead at a time. The reality is, however, that before you know it you have an ageing squad that needs completely overhauled with no replacements in the wings. In the pursuit of short term success, you have brought about long term failure. As a United fan there would be nothing scarier for me than a completely settled side with no youth prospects being blooded (like Chelsea) - I love that we always have younger players involved in the squad because that is what will bring about long term stability.

The Running Man said:
if you consider the net spend by utd over this time period it must surely match if not exceed 99% of teams other than barca and real...this must also be considered.
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I'd be very surprised if it does but even so money does not equal success, how much have Chelsea spent for example? How much did Lazio win when they were breaking world transfer records? And so on and so on...

The Running Man said:
If you accept that the '99 squad was by and large chance (it was if you consider we havent had any such talented youth come through since then, let alone as a group), and then 2008 us being so good because we had the best/second best player in our ranks (ronaldo) and since he left we have not been nearly as competetive compared to the big boys we can see that the achievements came about due to a bit of luck, or a random player...

When infact we had had so many years of potential consistency to build around (90s team plus peripherals) without being upset by manager sackings or presidential elections combined with our spend, then the issue comes to light more visibly.
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Two issues here:

1) You assume that managerial sackings and presidential elections are the only thing that can upset a squad (presumably because United have not been subject to them which suits your agenda). That is patently nonsense. Players come and go or lose form, financial situations change, rival sides improve; clubs don't exist in isolation, they are subject to many external factors beyond their control. Consistency and sensible management mitigate these factors somewhat but does not guarantee success.

To say the 90s team did not progress is so far off the mark too, that side built from struggling in Europe to winning the treble.

2) The first part of that is possibly the worst argument I've ever heard. We were successful because we were lucky to have a number of youth players come through at the same time or because we had the best player in the world? No ****, how do you think other teams become successful? Is it really a surprise to you that our greatest success came when we had our best players? :o

There is not a team in the world that has won major trophies without having one or the other, and what makes Barcelona so good is that they currently have both.
 
2) The first part of that is possibly the worst argument I've ever heard. We were successful because we were lucky to have a number of youth players come through at the same time or because we had the best player in the world? No ****, how do you think other teams become successful? Is it really a surprise to you that our greatest success came when we had our best players?
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if it wasnt lucky, then how come we havent counjoured up more giggsy, bechams and scholes and nevilles.

That giggs and scholes are still essential some 15-20 years later tells me thaty we were lucky to the most extreme that we had the backbone of a team come through alll at the same. if it isnt replicable then how would you class it? fortunate? skill? other? you tell me.

dont get me wrong they were subsidised by some good, (stam) and bad (cruyf) signings as all teams are, but when you dont have to buy a lw, rw, cm, cm, rb etc because you have them for free, well. it helps. then you go out and simply buy the best strikers you can (yorke cole, attempt shearer) in a time where no one else can afford these fees...

My point is not that having the best players, but that we stumbled upobn these players as opposed to consistently bringing through these players...
 
The Running Man said:
if it wasnt lucky, then how come we havent counjoured up more giggsy, bechams and scholes and nevilles.

That giggs and scholes are still essential some 15-20 years later tells me thaty we were lucky to the most extreme that we had the backbone of a team come through alll at the same. if it isnt replicable then how would you class it? fortunate? skill? other? you tell me.

dont get me wrong they were subsidised by some good, (stam) and bad (cruyf) signings as all teams are, but when you dont have to buy a lw, rw, cm, cm, rb etc because you have them for free, well. it helps. then you go out and simply buy the best strikers you can (yorke cole, attempt shearer) in a time where no one else can afford these fees...

My point is not that having the best players, but that we stumbled upobn these players as opposed to consistently bringing through these players...
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Your argument fails on the mechanics of how a team actually works though. Undoubtedly, City have the stronger squad than United. Arguably better players in a lot of positions. Yet we find ourselves 4 points ahead of them, albeit with a game in hand. Buying the best players does not translate to having the best team over the course of the season.

The Whole is more than the sum of it's parts

You can argue that teams have luck in cup games but to be lucky for a whole season, i'm sorry i don't buy it. As much as it pains some opposing fans, if you end up the Champions then it is because you are consistently the better team in my opinion. Likewise if you end up going down it's because you are consistently one of the worse teams.
 
The Running Man said:
If you accept that the '99 squad was by and large chance (it was if you consider we havent had any such talented youth come through since then, let alone as a group
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I think it is just a sign of the times - in the early-mid 90s it was still feasible to bring through youth players en masse whereas nowadays the big clubs by and large have to buy their way to success, they can't afford to risk banking on the youth setup. Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Real Madrid etc are all build on buying players. Barcelona you could maybe make a case for but the days of half a team being made up from youth players (by which I mean genuine youth players developed in house not young players bought in from elsewhere) are gone I feel.
 
HangTime said:
I think it is just a sign of the times - in the early-mid 90s it was still feasible to bring through youth players en masse whereas nowadays the big clubs by and large have to buy their way to success, they can't afford to risk banking on the youth setup. Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Real Madrid etc are all build on buying players. Barcelona you could maybe make a case for but the days of half a team being made up from youth players (by which I mean genuine youth players developed in house not young players bought in from elsewhere) are gone I feel.
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In the UK teams have been hampered by the stupid 90 minute rule on recruiting youngsters - that has been done away with now so hopefully we will see the best prospects going to the best academies again.
 
One More Solo said:
In the UK teams have been hampered by the stupid 90 minute rule on recruiting youngsters - that has been done away with now so hopefully we will see the best prospects going to the best academies again.
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Its good in a way - but I wouldnt mind a few smaller clubs having amazing accadamies, so the youngsters get to learn away from the glare of the spot lights, and grow up a bit more naturally and learn with little pressure on them (abit like Ajax, who currently dont have a brilliant 1st team, but their accadamy is still highly regarded) so the , big money goes back into the lower leagues for the stars of tomorrow.

Im all for a few young highly gifted kids to land on Utd's door step (and Arsenal /Chelsea etc if they HAVE to lol), but imo this isnt always the best way
 
Strange thread.

How many teams can really look back over a period of years and honestly say that they had a time when they dominated every other team in every competition?

Arguably the only team who could say they've 'dominated' the Champions league since 1992 is Barcelona. And even they have only won it 4 times (if you include 91-92 season), to Man U's twice in that time.

But in that time Barcelona have had their off seasons, certainly domestically. In 2001-02 they finished 4th in La Liga and out in the first round of the Copa Del Rey, then in 2002-03 they finished 6th and again out in the first round of their domestic cup. Whereas Man U have never been outside of the top 3 domestically (Premiership).

Again very few teams dominate finals on a regular basis and Barcelona's recent Champions league performances have been truly exceptional.

Have Man U had seasons where they've been one of (if not the) best teams in Europe? Arguably yes, on more than one occasion.

Have they underperformed in European Finals/Semis, compared to expectations. Yes, definitely.

Were those expectations maybe inflated due to their domestic dominance. Probably.

But what do you want? To be able to look back and say that you had season(s) where you blew everyone out of the water? There's not many teams that can honestly say they had a team that COULD have done that, never mind DID.
 
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div0 said:
Strange thread.

How many teams can really look back over a period of years and honestly say that they had a time when they dominated every other team in every competition?

Arguably the only team who could say they've 'dominated' the Champions league since 1992 is Barcelona. And even they have only won it 4 times (if you include 91-92 season), to Man U's twice in that time.

But in that time Barcelona have had their off seasons, certainly domestically. In 2001-02 they finished 4th in La Liga and out in the first round of the Copa Del Rey, then in 2002-03 they finished 6th and again out in the first round of their domestic cup. Whereas Man U have never been outside of the top 3 domestically (Premiership).

Again very few teams dominate finals on a regular basis and Barcelona's recent Champions league performances have been truly exceptional.

Have Man U had seasons where they've been one of (if not the) best teams in Europe? Arguably yes, on more than one occasion.

Have they underperformed in European Finals/Semis, compared to expectations. Yes, definitely.

Were those expectations maybe inflated due to their domestic dominance. Probably.

But what do you want? To be able to look back and say that you had season(s) where you blew everyone out of the water? There's not many teams that can honestly say they had a team that COULD have done that, never mind DID.
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It's not that strange. NickG just occasionally likes to remind everyone that in his opinion he could do better than Ferguson.
 
DanH84 said:
It's not that strange. NickG just occasionally likes to remind everyone that in his opinion he could do better than Ferguson.
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interesting thing to say. i wrote then deleted my first response so ill ask politelyplease point out in this thread where i said i could do better personally?

you guys seem to mistake me pointing something out or criticising something for me saying that i would have been able to do it better...can we say nothing unless it is butt kissing the manager?

sure there are things i would have done differently in hindsight but if fergie said go jump off a cliff i could easily see a large number of ocuk ers ready to fall to their impending doom.
 
The Running Man said:
interesting thing to say. i wrote then deleted my first response so ill ask politelyplease point out in this thread where i said i could do better personally?

you guys seem to mistake me pointing something out or criticising something for me saying that i would have been able to do it better...can we say nothing unless it is butt kissing the manager?

sure there are things i would have done differently in hindsight but if fergie said go jump off a cliff i could easily see a large number of ocuk ers ready to fall to their impending doom.
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A fair proportion of what you're criticising is with the benefit of hindsight - it's relatively easily normally to spot where mistakes have been made when you're looking back.

I think we can probably all agree that Juan Sebastian Veron was not a resounding success but would be it be fair to say that at the time of signing him there didn't appear any logical reason why he shouldn't work out? He'd just helped Lazio to their first Scudetto in 25 years and only their second in their history as well as winning the treble with them plus was heading towards what should have been his peak years. That's just an example, you may or may not blame Sir Alex for that particular transfer but it's one of those things where with hindsight you can maybe see warning signs that he wouldn't be quite what was expected.

I don't think what people object to is pointing out that Sir Alex has made mistakes but that it seems to be a near constant refrain from you that the team hasn't done as well as it "theoretically" could have. Maybe I just view football differently since both my domestic and national teams are fundamentally unlikely to ever dominate their opposition but I enjoy the victories when they come and try not to focus on the negatives, there'd be almost too many low points to mention if I did it the other way round.
 
semi-pro waster said:
A fair proportion of what you're criticising is with the benefit of hindsight - it's relatively easily normally to spot where mistakes have been made when you're looking back.

I think we can probably all agree that Juan Sebastian Veron was not a resounding success but would be it be fair to say that at the time of signing him there didn't appear any logical reason why he shouldn't work out? He'd just helped Lazio to their first Scudetto in 25 years and only their second in their history as well as winning the treble with them plus was heading towards what should have been his peak years. That's just an example, you may or may not blame Sir Alex for that particular transfer but it's one of those things where with hindsight you can maybe see warning signs that he wouldn't be quite what was expected.

I don't think what people object to is pointing out that Sir Alex has made mistakes but that it seems to be a near constant refrain from you that the team hasn't done as well as it "theoretically" could have. Maybe I just view football differently since both my domestic and national teams are fundamentally unlikely to ever dominate their opposition but I enjoy the victories when they come and try not to focus on the negatives, there'd be almost too many low points to mention if I did it the other way round.
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Probably the best post in the thread. Well balanced and dare I say pragmatic to boot.

Regarding Veron, it was widely regarded by United Fans that Veron actually played well in Europe. So you could see Fergies thinking on this one but again the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Prior to his signing, fans and Journo's were screaming for United to sign a world class player in his prime. The stars were aligned, United awash with cash from the Premier League. A stadium full week in week out, able to support the wage demands of these South American players in all their pomp and Juan Sebastian Veron a player at the top of his game. It was a transfer that should have worked but for whatever reason did not. I can think of at least 19 other teams in the Premiership alone who would have took Veron at the time United did if they could have afforded to and quite possibly a few in Europe to ;)

Surprisingly for such a flop, he went back to Italy and won Serie A with Inter (albeit by default) and then guided Estudiantes to their first Apertura title in about 30 years iirc.
 
I have to admit I never felt that bad about Veron mainly because of how it didnt work out at Chelsea either (even if Utd did lose approx ~£15m on the deal)

Unquestionably a good player, just not that suited to an English team for whatever reasons.
 
Veron in our current side would be awesome tbh. Just didn't work out for him at the time mainly due to us already having Keane & Scholes in the side, but yeah I always liked him and the only thing that makes him a flop imo is the fact he was sold after 2 years.
 
One More Solo said:
In the UK teams have been hampered by the stupid 90 minute rule on recruiting youngsters
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I always thought that rule was a bit stupid because it basically meant if you were the next Messi but happened to live in Cornwall you'd be banned from 'signing' for a top flight club.
 
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