Just what is NVIDIA up to?

humbug · 27 Jul 2023 at 16:47

0h_no_not_again said:
Your point is totally valid, but there is another interpretation of the same data.

Their gaming GPU segment will keep giving them only 15% unless they're willing to expand the market by reducing prices. Obviously this relies on the assumption that you can maintain good gross margin selling at lower prices, but Apple and others have made this work.

I also think that your point was more valid when cutting edge nodes were fully booked, but that is absolutely not the case at the moment. There is semi-conductor supply available, NV have just decided that they want high margin @ low volumes.

That's all good until someone comes into the market HUNGRY. I'm looking at you, Intel...

A third competitor is welcome, the problem is that is not what we are going to get, Nvidia are in practical reality a monopoly already and Intel will not change that.
If Intel stick with it they will be fighting with AMD over the 10% Nvidia don't have, now you have Nvidia in exactly the same position with a weaker AMD and Intel.

Its up to us, we have to stop buying Nvidia, instead buy AMD and Intel.

gjbf1 · 27 Jul 2023 at 17:43

humbug said:
A third competitor is welcome, the problem is that is not what we are going to get, Nvidia are in practical reality a monopoly already and Intel will not change that.
If Intel stick with it they will be fighting with AMD over the 10% Nvidia don't have, now you have Nvidia in exactly the same position with a weaker AMD and Intel.

Its up to us, we have to stop buying Nvidia, instead buy AMD and Intel.

Intel have the resources to stick it to Nvidia.

humbug · 27 Jul 2023 at 17:47

gjbf1 said:
Intel have the resources to stick it to Nvidia.

Erm? they don't even have the resources to stick it to AMD, not even joking, Intel are a very long way from the company they were in 2016.

gpuerrilla · 27 Jul 2023 at 18:12

They are increasing their cpu prices now to pay for their new fabs.

gjbf1 · 27 Jul 2023 at 18:57

humbug said:
Erm? they don't even have the resources to stick it to AMD, not even joking, Intel are a very long way from the company they were in 2016.

Really? Interesting, I can't say I've been keeping track. Just going off their reputation.

Joxeon · 27 Jul 2023 at 19:05

humbug said:
Erm? they don't even have the resources to stick it to AMD, not even joking, Intel are a very long way from the company they were in 2016.

They don't need to worry about AMD as they'll stick it to themselves.

humbug said:
A third competitor is welcome, the problem is that is not what we are going to get, Nvidia are in practical reality a monopoly already and Intel will not change that.
If Intel stick with it they will be fighting with AMD over the 10% Nvidia don't have, now you have Nvidia in exactly the same position with a weaker AMD and Intel.

Its up to us, we have to stop buying Nvidia, instead buy AMD and Intel.

The $500 and under segment of the market is ripe for the taking and this is where the majority of the cards are sold so intel don't need anything flashy and just need to beat out the poor offerings that Nvidia has put out.

Paracelsus · 27 Jul 2023 at 19:34

humbug said:
Erm? they don't even have the resources to stick it to AMD, not even joking, Intel are a very long way from the company they were in 2016.

Intel are still a cashflow monster - though less so in recent years - so I don't think it's a resource issue, it's more needing to make the right architectural and business choices. Gelsinger, as an engineer as opposed to a beancounter, will understand this, but design pipelines are years long, and AMD have struck gold with Zen and its sequels while Intel have been pursuing an inferior design. It's like Netburst vs Athlon all over again.
Time will tell if they can flip it round to Core vs Bulldozer!

humbug · 27 Jul 2023 at 20:01

Paracelsus said:
Intel are still a cashflow monster - though less so in recent years - so I don't think it's a resource issue, it's more needing to make the right architectural and business choices. Gelsinger, as an engineer as opposed to a beancounter, will understand this, but design pipelines are years long, and AMD have struck gold with Zen and its sequels while Intel have been pursuing an inferior design. It's like Netburst vs Athlon all over again.
Time will tell if they can flip it round to Core vs Bulldozer!

Intel's last quarter financials.

Revenue: 11.7bn
Gross margin: 34%
Income: $3.46bn Loss
Debt: $50.27bn
Market cap (company value) $142bn

Compared to AMD

Revenue: $5.35bn
Gross Margin: 44%
Income: $140m Loss
Debt: $2.47bn
Market cap (company value) $182bn

Both didn't do well in the last quarter. the only ones who did were.............................................................................................................Nvidia.

GhostDog1981 · 27 Jul 2023 at 20:03

humbug said:
Intel's last quarter financials.

Revenue: 11.7bn
Gross margin: 34%
Income: $3.46bn Loss
Debt: $50.27bn
Market cap (company value) $142bn

Compared to AMD

Revenue: $5.35bn
Gross Margin: 44%
Income: $140m Loss
Debt: $2.47bn
Market cap (company value) $182bn

Both didn't do well in the last quarter. the only ones who did were.............................................................................................................Nvidia.

Must be because of the more you buy the more you save policy…

kute · 27 Jul 2023 at 20:05

at least the 4090 and 4080 are great cards - the 4080 jumps the 3080ti, 3090, 3090ti, and still has like 30% headroom over the 3090ti. It's expensive, too expensive, but that's the way things are going.

However the drop below the 4080 is dramatic, and the lower you go, the worse the cards are. The 4060ti not being able to jump the 3070 is frankly, just bizarre. It's almost malicious. I can't make sense of it. The primary offender is the anemic bus right? How much would it really cost per card to make it a proper one and gain the card like, 30% performance and not wreck their reputation? Like 30 bucks a card? I know I'd gladly add 30 bucks to any card I buy to take away a huge bottleneck on it. IDK. I'm just thinking aloud

Makes me wonder why those game services aren't more popular? Like where you stream your gameplay from nvidias big ass gpu cluster or however it works? I've read it more or less functions and only costs like 20 bucks a month. I like building my PC and having it sit here beside me, so I don't like the idea of it - but if it's the best way to go about it, then that's how she goes

gpuerrilla · 27 Jul 2023 at 20:07

GhostDog1981 said:
Must be because of the more you buy the more you save policy…

..and the downgrade the sku while upping the price card trick!

Paracelsus · 27 Jul 2023 at 20:55

humbug said:
Both didn't do well in the last quarter. the only ones who did were.............................................................................................................Nvidia.

This is true, my point was that despite the debt and shrinking margins, they still have plenty of cash flowing in to fund projects - as we've seen with the new fabs - but the problem is no amount of money thrown at an inferior design will make a difference. We'd better hope that they have better architectures in the pipeline already and their new nodes come out OK, otherwise they'll end up in the same trouble AMD was in the mid 2010s... not impossible to make a comeback but much more difficult.

nVidia have absolutely blown it out of the park. The 10xx series was a monster design win and they have barely slowed down since. Big technological moat and seemingly the best engineers in the business.

JediFragger · 27 Jul 2023 at 21:25

Paracelsus said:
nVidia have absolutely blown it out of the park. The 10xx series was a monster design win and they have barely slowed down since. Big technological moat and seemingly the best engineers in the business.

Could even be argued that Maxwell was damn good too, performed v well even at 28nm. Nvidia are truly monsterous now, and tbf AMD are doing well to even be near them at present!

humbug · 27 Jul 2023 at 22:45

Paracelsus said:
This is true, my point was that despite the debt and shrinking margins, they still have plenty of cash flowing in to fund projects - as we've seen with the new fabs - but the problem is no amount of money thrown at an inferior design will make a difference. We'd better hope that they have better architectures in the pipeline already and their new nodes come out OK, otherwise they'll end up in the same trouble AMD was in the mid 2010s... not impossible to make a comeback but much more difficult.

nVidia have absolutely blown it out of the park. The 10xx series was a monster design win and they have barely slowed down since. Big technological moat and seemingly the best engineers in the business.

They don't have enough money to fund much of anything, they are shutting projects down because they can't afford them. And ARC is constantly at the top of the axe list.

This idea that Intel can do to Nvidia what AMD can't seems delusional to me, straw clutching instead of facing up to the fact that we have to make the radical changes, people are just not going to buy an Intel GPU over an Nvidia one in numbers that matter unless it costs peanut's in comparison, just as it is with AMD, and Intel have already proven they are less willing to do that than AMD, this hope is bat #### crazy against all the evidence, what's it based on?

Joxeon · 27 Jul 2023 at 23:10

kute said:
at least the 4090 and 4080 are great cards - the 4080 jumps the 3080ti, 3090, 3090ti, and still has like 30% headroom over the 3090ti

30% is stretching it a bit.

humbug · 27 Jul 2023 at 23:18

Joxeon said:
30% is stretching it a bit.

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Joxeon · 27 Jul 2023 at 23:43

humbug said:
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Rroff · 28 Jul 2023 at 00:16

All the 4000 series are good cards in their own right if they'd been named and priced accordingly - I can even forgive some price increase at the same tier point - but for example I bought a 3070FE at £470 and to get a meaningful upgrade I'd have to spend basically twice that - total joke - meanwhile the 3070FE came in competitive against the previous generation high end.

No one would have blinked an eye at the gimped VRAM on the 4060(ti) cards if they'd been named and priced as what they really are - x50 tier.

Joxeon · 28 Jul 2023 at 00:39

Rroff said:
All the 4000 series are good cards in their own right if they'd been named and priced accordingly - I can even forgive some price increase at the same tier point - but for example I bought a 3070FE at £470 and to get a meaningful upgrade I'd have to spend basically twice that - total joke - meanwhile the 3070FE came in competitive against the previous generation high end.

No one would have blinked an eye at the gimped VRAM on the 4060(ti) cards if they'd been named and priced as what they really are - x50 tier.

Each tier of card for ADA other than the 4090 delivers less of an uplift compared to the previous gen model than Ampere did against its previous gen models yet prices have increased on all but the 60 class which gets barely any extra performance while some of the cards have had the price increased by more in one generation than the previous 20 years.

Blackjack Davy · 28 Jul 2023 at 06:45

kute said:
However the drop below the 4080 is dramatic, and the lower you go, the worse the cards are. The 4060ti not being able to jump the 3070 is frankly, just bizarre. It's almost malicious. I can't make sense of it. The primary offender is the anemic bus right? How much would it really cost per card to make it a proper one and gain the card like, 30% performance and not wreck their reputation? Like 30 bucks a card? I know I'd gladly add 30 bucks to any card I buy to take away a huge bottleneck on it. IDK. I'm just thinking aloud

Of course its ~~malicious~~ just business the anaemic cards as you say are there to make you think its not worth it and may as well shell out mega moolah for the top end cards. Classic upselling.