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keep your keyless fob in a metal box my friends car was broken into

Discussion in 'Motors' started by clubb699, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Screeeech

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Dec 29, 2014

    Posts: 1,689

    Location: Farnham, Surrey

    I actually hired a couple of big fords in LA a month or so back, (Expedition, and F150) and both of them did actually have a small num pad on the door, that you can use for keyless entry;


    I'd never seen it before, but it seemed like a pretty good idea - convenient, and certainly more secure than having a fob that's endlessly broadcasting an signal that says "open door plz"
  2. Armageus


    Joined: May 19, 2012

    Posts: 5,869

    Location: Spalding, Lincolnshire

    Not sure that's more convenient than a normal key and pressing a single button to unlock though :)
  3. EVH


    Joined: Mar 11, 2004

    Posts: 24,076

    Location: Swansea

    Set the keys to begin broadcast if triggered by a built in accelerometer.

    If the key hasn’t moved in 2 minutes, stop broadcasting.

    I’m surprised the car industry is so outdated when it comes to security tbh.
  4. Nasher


    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 5,893

    Just store them in a biscuit tin.

    But "keyless entry" needs to die, it's just not secure.
  5. #Chri5#


    Joined: Feb 27, 2003

    Posts: 6,089

    Location: Shropshire

    You might lose the paring between the "keys" and the car, so then have to visit a dealer to get them re-paired. Changing batteries in keys sometimes has a warning that it needs to be done in a limited time frame.
  6. Caged


    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 22,015

    Well if you were monitoring the network you'd see the link drop and come back up and could investigate further. I don't think it's impossible to detect whether a signal is being relayed in this way - for example the relay radios are going to have different characteristics than the key fob in terms of how close in tolerance they are to the specified frequency, how accurately they can hit different points on the constellation, the clock signal etc. By beefing up the technology in the car it should be possible to be able to fingerprint the transmitting device in a way that simply relaying the data contained within the carrier won't be able to replicate.
  7. wolfie138


    Joined: Jun 8, 2013

    Posts: 886

    no bomb required, just a spike in the driver's seat that you trigger to fire upwards if it senses weight on the cushion.
  8. Avenged7Fold


    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 10,246

    Location: Surrey

    What is wrong with just having a button that sends the signal, rather than have a fob that sends the signal all the time?

    I currently drive an estate and a hatchback. The battery has gone in the hatchback that uses a key and button and i have not got round to sorting it out, so i just use my key and the estate has like a wireless card fob which i hate because sometimes i have gotten out of the car in a noisy places and walk away to let it self lock forgetting to switch the very quiet idle engine off.

    I am never so lazy or in such a rush that i feel that the key is a hindrance on my life.
  9. SPG


    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 3,659

    All about time of flight, this attack method will be eliminated soon enough.
  10. Street


    Joined: Jan 17, 2005

    Posts: 6,448

    Location: Liverpool

    Exactly! It just seems like technology for technologies sake. Is pushing a button really that inconvenient for people?!
  11. Battery!


    Joined: Feb 28, 2014

    Posts: 985

  12. robj20


    Joined: Apr 9, 2007

    Posts: 5,513

    Location: Manchester

    Loads of things they could do easily to make this harder.
    The key and cat could have a list of multiple codes they use, each code lasts about 10 minutes, the car and key then cycle through them.
    If you had say 100 codes, that would require the thief to sit outside your house for a long time to get them all.
    The car would then turn off if it doesn't receive the correct codes. So the thief would get 10 minutes down the road and it would turn off.

    Manufacturers should build the sequence code into cars as well, the one where you input a sequence of buttons, like temp up, fan speed down, preset 1, and so on.
    A two button sequence would probably deter most and not really add to owners inconvenience too much.
  13. Raumarik


    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 12,918

    Back in 2013 I was on a hacking course where the instructor demonstrated hacking a well known brand of car (his own car btw) in the parking lot from inside the building (granted we're only talking 5M or so). He was able to turn the engine off remotely.

    This sort of thing has been going on for years, car manufacturers are very slow to catch up and the fact these cars are essentially just PCs on wheels is terrifying, any we want driverless cars??
  14. Scania


    Joined: Nov 25, 2004

    Posts: 20,747

    Location: On the road....

    Vehicle security in general is rather lame, when I worked at Stobart I would often walk into the tractor unit park (anything upto 100 trucks sat there) and pressing the remote unlock keyfob would unlock more than one truck!

    This used to happen with both Scania and Volvo units,I guess most car owners don’t encounter situations where they are using their remote key in front of many identical cars of similar ages but it amazed me when it happened and kept happening at different depots...
  15. MonkeyMan


    Joined: Jul 9, 2003

    Posts: 5,121

    Location: Location Location

    They need to think of some radical new technology, like oh I dunno how about the fob only sending a signal when a button is pressed :o

    I don't get keyless entry or even keyless starting, the former makes the paranoid worry if the damn thing is locked and with the latter you usually end up sticking the key somewhere anyway else you forget to pick the things up when you get out.

    Plus the batteries must run out quicker if they are always transmitting.
  16. platinum87


    Joined: Nov 25, 2007

    Posts: 4,747

    Location: London

  17. kaiowas


    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 10,044

    Location: Castle Anthrax

    Well you got that part right anyway.

    Why? I get out, I press the button on the door handle. The mirrors fold in and it's locked. It's no different to pressing the lock button on the fob. It won't unlock until I try and open the door.

    Why would I be putting the key anywhere? It's never left my pocket (or in the wifes case, the depths of her handbag). If I did manage to leave the keys in the car it wouldn't let me lock it anyway.
  18. Dr Who


    Joined: Nov 11, 2004

    Posts: 7,767

    Location: Street (Somerset)

    Yeah an SMS code you have to enter on a keypad to start it :D
  19. dowie


    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 29,075

    The cable was just an analogy(if you like assume it is an unconnected cable on a hotdeask for people to plug their work laptops into), obviously the signal is going to drop anyway in the case of the car keyfob. The signal from the keyfob itself is going to vary in strength depending how far away the person is standing - timing is the key here but it requires some changes to the system they use IIRC.

    AFAIK one issue there is there is a variance of the order of milliseconds for the initial response from these key fobs (presumably they go into sleep mode etc..) but the addition of a relay device extending the signal over a short distance of say 20m or so might only add on say 100 nanoseconds-ish. There were some Swiss researchers who looked into it a few years ago and there was a timing suggestion made by them which was the addition of some distance bounding protocol... so in addition to the usual handshake etc.. then, with the key fob awake you measure the round trip time, albeit the processing delay for this part at this point ought to be known, have a much, much lower variance and the distance can therefore be calculated (or rather any round trip time greater than some preset level be rejected).
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  20. Jambo


    Joined: Aug 4, 2004

    Posts: 5,047

    Manufacturers don't care because theft helps them sell more cars.

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