Kyle Rittenhouse - teen who shot three people in Kenosha

I'm beginning to wonder if it's time AntiFa were designated as a terrorist organisation and dealt with appropriately.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea (although they are not looking good right now) and I'm also not sure anyone has the balls to do it.

It used to be the swampies and squatter types that'd turn up at any sort of protest with anti-capitalist banners and such who were pretty harmless but it's getting a lot more sinister now.
 
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Narj said:
I'm beginning to wonder if it's time AntiFa were designated as a terrorist organisation and dealt with appropriately.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea (although they are not looking good right now) and I'm also not sure anyone has the balls to do it.

It used to be the swampies and squatter types that'd turn up at any sort of protest with anti-capitalist banners and such who were pretty harmless but it's getting a lot more sinister now.
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Sure, but as long as we do the same for right wing groups that have killed far, far more people.

https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7

Personally, I think it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction for a group that hasn't killed anyone to date.

Are you mistakenly assuming that all the people causing the criminal conduct/destruction of property are linked to antifa?

In a lot if cases, they are not:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...and-protesters-with-antifa-ties-idUSKCN2502NQ
 
Yeah I mean obviously the criteria for being designated a terrorist organisation isn't 'number of murders', interesting straw man you've constructed there though
 
Roar87 said:
Yeah I mean obviously the criteria for being designated a terrorist organisation isn't 'number of murders', interesting straw man you've constructed there though
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Yeah I was going to say, organised destruction of property, looting and arson is still terrorism in my book. It's not OK just because nobody died.

Pretty sure plenty of far right orgs are already proscribed both here and in the US - including Jihadi groups - please don't derail thread off the back of that but I do find it interesting how groups that hate each other are in the same category!

If it's not AnitFa, who is it? I thought the whole point of their "movement" was to keep their ties low key. They're not wandering around wearing AntiFa T-Shirts so I'm not surprised there's not much evidence. Someone is bankrolling and pulling the strings somewhere - according to the police, they had tip-offs that groups were turning up in minibuses to cause disruption.

Even in some of those videos I've watched you can hear protestors saying "it's AntiFa" so I wonder how they are making those assumptions.
 
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Narj said:
Someone is bankrolling and pulling the strings somewhere - according to the police, they had tip-offs that groups were turning up in minibuses to cause disruption.
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Whose advantage is it to seed fragmentation and disruption within the West? we need to be far more vigilant IMO that we aren't being played for other people's agendas. It is almost pitiful seeing how easily the population in the UK, US, etc. are triggered by playing with their prejudices, etc.
 
garnett said:
Self-defense? If the mace-user attacked first?
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Depends if you think its reasonable to shoot someone who's macing you?

In the case of the Kenosha shootings, they were trying to take his gun and hitting him physically. If the guy with the mace was trying to take the guys pistol or assaulting him then yes id say again self defense.

But then it takes a while for all the facts to come out.
 
Johno please? said:
Depends if you think its reasonable to shoot someone who's macing you?

In the case of the Kenosha shootings, they were trying to take his gun and hitting him physically. If the guy with the mace was trying to take the guys pistol or assaulting him then yes id say again self defense.

But then it takes a while for all the facts to come out.
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Being maced leads to you possibly not being able to see and someone then taking your gun? Self defence arguments are based on mindsets at the time. Being maced is likely a very good justification for self defence.

Obviously though, the main point here will be if the killer threatened to shoot or pointed his gun at the guy that maced him first. In that case the guy that died would have been acting in self defence.

Just like with the Kyle situation, we simply don't have all the facts that show us how the initial confrontations/tensions started.
 
Narj said:
Y

If it's not AnitFa, who is it? I thought the whole point of their "movement" was to keep their ties low key. They're not wandering around wearing AntiFa T-Shirts so I'm not surprised there's not much evidence. Someone is bankrolling and pulling the strings somewhere - according to the police, they had tip-offs that groups were turning up in minibuses to cause disruption.
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The police all over the US have been saying things about tip offs about "antifa" arriving in minisbusses.
You know what, those tip offs are coming from the likes of far right Twitter and face book groups that hyped up idiots take serious.
No credible sources.

So far none of these magical minibuses have turned up anywhere, what has happened is that local yahoos with guns have done things like chase off unarmed tourists and from memory in one case a posse of brain donors nearly shot a family after chasing them all around their town and cutting down trees to stop their escape (IIRC it happened in one of the towns where Twilight was filmed and a fair bit of their income derived from people visiting filming locations, so not like it was unusual to get visitors).
 
Roar87 said:
Yeah I mean obviously the criteria for being designated a terrorist organisation isn't 'number of murders', interesting straw man you've constructed there though
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Well what metric does he want to use then?

I at least provided some evidence rather than posting my feelings and parroting Trump.
 
garnett said:
Are you talking about Kenosha? I genuinely haven't seen details other deaths. Can you link some reports?
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No, the CHAS/CHOP thing mentioned was in Seattle, there were deaths and armed protestors there too, there have been several deaths across the US.

Why is it police in "Democrat cities" are so much more prone to riot-starting violence?
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I know this is asked of the other poster - I'm hoping any Trump chat stays in the Trump thread but hopefully this can be a non controversial point as it is mostly just pointing out who has control/highlighting what has happened - to some extent you've perhaps got a higher portion of people perhaps willing to engage in this sort of thing (certainly in Portland), but perhaps more improtantlysimply because there is plenty of direct political control of policing at the local and state level in the US so responses can vary depending on who is running things. The right/left thing doesn't completely translate - while some moderate dems could well be moderate Tories or Blairite Labour over here there are also various democratic socialists who are pretty far left, including say the council woman who joined and encouraged protestors in Seattle. - For example when CHAZ/CHOP started the Seattle Mayor took a very hands off apporach and allowed it to spread, peopel flocked to the area - in the end several blocks of the city had been taken over, local businesses shaken down for protection money or vandalised, several shooting events, people killed by armed CHAZ security (antifa types) and it took ages for them to finally order the police to shut it down - perhaps because they later targted the Mayor's house. Ditto to Kenosha, the local authorities requested 2000 national guard troops, after 2 nights of rioting/property destruction - the state Governor turned them down and only supplied a couple of hundred... so this ad hoc "militia" stepped in instead answering the call of a local business owner apparently and resulting in the shootings.

Now last night in Portland after weeks of violence a bunch of Trump supporters seems to have had a little "protest" of their own driving a convoy of cars through and shooting people with paintball guns etc.. one of them has now been shot dead by an antifa person. In the case of Portland this is where Trump/the Feds tried to stretch things as far as possible and allow federal authorities to protect the federal court which has been under attack for several nights by BLM/antifa (which, because it is federal property, they have jurisdiction to do) of course if they can only arrest people around there and not crack down on the wider protest they just act as a magnet for protestors... the local authorities didn't like this and an agreement made to get state police in instead... but the local prosecutor (this is a political appointment too) decided to drop the charges for most of the people arrested... which caused the state police to claim they couldn't therefore do their jobs and hand over to the overstretched local police... for example the Mayor had an antifa sit in in his apartment block lobby (ironically one of the people occupying his lobby was someone arrested and released for rioting not long before) , the security called the police and didn't get a response for hours! Bascially at a local level some places have been very hands off and it has lead to a breakdown of law and order... thus it can play favourably for someone like Trump who might well be hoping to emulate Nixon's success at this point.
 
With Portland, don't forget the Federal officers were black bagging people at random in the street away from the buildings...

Which is an absolutely brilliant way of ensuring the protests go on and get worse, as it's not legal for them to do (under various parts of the constitution and their own rules), and basically what failing dictators do, and get criticised for by normal US governments*.

I was reading a comment from a US military officer who was saying something I've seen police from other countries say - the way the US police (especially the federal agents sent in to make a point) have handled the protests in the US is pretty much by going through the handbook of how to handle protests and doing everything that is known to make them worse.
The US police throughout have been instigating much of the violence by doing things like shooting at peaceful protesters, using tear gas on people who have just been sitting/standing/chanting, maiming protesters, attacking news crews, attacking legal observers (who are there in an agreed attire with the agreement of both the City AND Police department), issuing orders to disperse when they've trapped the protesters in tunnels or between buildings so there is no way to disperse, arresting people for "curfew violations" hours before the curfew.
At this point there is a US lawyer who has been collecting and reposting videos of the police and he's up to something like 900 incidents (of which around 100 were in the first couple of days) of the police doing things like drive by shootings of peaceful protesters using pepperball guns/shooing at the windows of normal traffic with rubber rounds, and randomly attacking OAP's (they turned up in one, dismounted and immediately went for an old guy on his own walking with the aid of a stick).

Don't forget right from the start the Police were attacking camera crews live on air - if the police are doing that, what the hell are they doing off camera where they're not being broadcast on the nightly news, and they've made a special point of attacking anyone who looks like they may have been filming them, almost as if they didn't want people collecting anything that could be used as evidence of what was going on that contradicts their reports.

The main reason so many of the protesters have been freed on bail or city mayors etc have been pushing for some of the protesters to be freed is because the Police are in so many cases pushing for charges that won't stick and that are nonsense - things like arresting everyone in an area (including those with press or observer credentials) then basically assigning an arresting officer and making up a charge at the station - as a number of the lawyers have said, that's not enforcing the law, that's working out ways to intimidate people who were not doing anything wrong under the law and trying to stop others from protesting.


*IIRC the acting director of DHS admitted on air they were acting illegally when he tried to brush it off at least one instance as they weren't detaining people, but were simply taking them away for questioning about someone they may have been seen with (one of the US lawyers pointed out how the statement showed they broke various parts of the constitution, with citations to the supreme court decisions, and how it fulfilled the legal definition of an illegal arrest/detention under US law).
 
Werewolf said:
The police all over the US have been saying things about tip offs about "antifa" arriving in minisbusses.
You know what, those tip offs are coming from the likes of far right Twitter and face book groups that hyped up idiots take serious.
No credible sources.

So far none of these magical minibuses have turned up anywhere, what has happened is that local yahoos with guns have done things like chase off unarmed tourists and from memory in one case a posse of brain donors nearly shot a family after chasing them all around their town and cutting down trees to stop their escape (IIRC it happened in one of the towns where Twilight was filmed and a fair bit of their income derived from people visiting filming locations, so not like it was unusual to get visitors).
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Well this is all going to be the word of police vs those arrested unless there's camera footage but this from the Seattle Times that seems to be covering the rumblings I'd read about. Not exactly coachloads full of agitators but there you go...

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/police-federal-agents-arrest-seattle-based-riot-kitchen-crew-that-stopped-in-kenosha-to-serve-free-food/#:~:text=Kenosha Police were assisted by,to fill multiple fuel cans.

The Kenosha Police Department tweeted that a citizen tip was received about several suspicious vehicles with out-of-state plates meeting in a remote lot. Police said in the statement: “Acting on this information Kenosha Police Officers located the suspicious vehicles and took up surveillance. Kenosha Police were assisted by the United States Marshals.”

Police say that they made nine arrests for disorderly conduct from three vehicles that included the school bus, the minivan and a bread truck. They say they observed the occupants of the bus and bread truck exit to fill multiple fuel cans.

Scheurle said that any cans filled with fuel would have been for legitimate uses, such as generators used in serving meals.

Police, who said the officers wore appropriate identification, said the minivan attempted to drive away, but that the police ultimately “forced entry” into the vehicle.

Police said the vehicles also contained helmets, gas masks, protective vests, illegal fireworks and suspected controlled substances.
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