Kyle Rittenhouse - teen who shot three people in Kenosha

[Roar87]

That is pathetic Imo. Trying to say they are "No great loss to society" is just a way to try and devalue their lives to lessen the impact of what happened.

Do you have any opinions on the legality of him having a firearm etc? I think that's a pretty key thing to discuss when arguing self defence.

I am glad he had a firearm because he was able to defend himself with it from people seeking to do him harm for trying to stop damage to property by vermin looters

 

[Dis86]

That is pathetic Imo. Trying to say they are "No great loss to society" is just a way to try and devalue their lives to lessen the impact of what happened.

Do you have any opinions on the legality of him having a firearm etc? I think that's a pretty key thing to discuss when arguing self defence.

I think for his life's sake it's probably pretty fortunate that he had one. I think it's unfortunate he needed one but given who and what he was facing it almost certainly saved his life.
And I'll say again, no great loss to society.

 

[Allnamestaken]

None of those replies address the issue that he was out of place with a firearm he was not meant to have which heavily contributed to the outcome of the situation he involved himself in. Ultimately it is true that he appears to have had to defend himself however he is responsible for inserting himself into an already volatile situation which lead to a TOTALLY AVOIDABLE outcome.

Interesting to see you guys completely let that go over your heads as usual.

He is not innocent, he needs to bare responsibility for his actions.

 

[sigma]

None of those replies address the issue that he was out of place with a firearm he was not meant to have which heavily contributed to the outcome of the situation he involved himself in. Ultimately it is true that he appears to have had to defend himself however he is responsible for inserting himself into an already volatile situation which lead to a TOTALLY AVOIDABLE outcome.

Interesting to see you guys completely let that go over your heads as usual.

He is not innocent, he needs to bare responsibility for his actions.

Don’t expect a response, lol.

 

[Dis86]

None of those replies address the issue that he was out of place with a firearm he was not meant to have which heavily contributed to the outcome of the situation he involved himself in. Ultimately it is true that he appears to have had to defend himself however he is responsible for inserting himself into an already volatile situation which lead to a TOTALLY AVOIDABLE outcome.

Interesting to see you guys completely let that go over your heads as usual.

He is not innocent, he needs to bare responsibility for his actions.

He wasn't out of place at all. He was acting entirely within the law, unlike the 'protesters', until he was set upon. They were the individuals that made that situation volatile.
As for the legality regarding the rifle, yup it seems to be a misdemeaner, but I'm not offay enough with American law on firearm possession to have any real clue on that matter. I'll have to bow to your expert knowledge and robust credentials on the matter there. What are they out of curiosity?

 

[Allnamestaken]

He wasn't out of place at all. He was acting entirely within the law, unlike the 'protesters', until he was set upon. They were the individuals that made that situation volatile.
As for the legality regarding the rifle, yup it seems to be a misdemeaner, but I'm not offay enough with American law on firearm possession to have any real clue on that matter. I'll have to bow to your expert knowledge and robust credentials on the matter there. What are they out of curiosity?

I looked up the law in those states, which he will obviously be held too however I am no expert myself which is why I even asked multiple times in this thread.

From what little I have gleaned from others who do know better and the bits I read was that he was under age and didn't himself legally attain the fire arm.


Its a factor in the whole situation which heavily contributed to the outcome.

 

[Energize]

None of those replies address the issue that he was out of place with a firearm he was not meant to have which heavily contributed to the outcome of the situation he involved himself in. Ultimately it is true that he appears to have had to defend himself however he is responsible for inserting himself into an already volatile situation which lead to a TOTALLY AVOIDABLE outcome.

Interesting to see you guys completely let that go over your heads as usual.

He is not innocent, he needs to bare responsibility for his actions.

Why the double standard?

Why not apply the same standard to the rioters?

 

[Roar87]

If people weren't illegally rioting, Kyle wouldn't have been there illegally with a weapon

 

[Dis86]

I looked up the law in those states, which he will obviously be held too however I am no expert myself which is why I even asked multiple times in this thread.

From what little I have gleaned from others who do know better and the bits I read was that he was under age and didn't himself legally attain the fire arm.


Its a factor in the whole situation which heavily contributed to the outcome.

But there wouldn't have been an outcome if the safety of someone who is legally a child wasn't threatened by a mob of violent adults.

 

[DisrupTor75]

If people weren't illegally rioting, Kyle wouldn't have been there illegally with a weapon

And if the cops did their jobs properly instead of behaving like out of control thugs with badges that don't seem to care less when they take someone's life there wouldn't have been any riots in the first place...

You can keep going round and round with this

 

[sigma]

And if the cops did their jobs properly instead of behaving like out of control thugs with badges that don't seem to care less when they take someone's life there wouldn't have been any riots in the first place...

You can keep going round and round with this

Next logical step... If there weren’t any black people...

 

[sigma]

But there wouldn't have been an outcome if the safety of someone who is legally a child wasn't threatened by a mob of violent adults.

lol

 

[Energize]

And if the cops did their jobs properly instead of behaving like out of control thugs with badges that don't seem to care less when they take someone's life there wouldn't have been any riots in the first place...

You can keep going round and round with this

Even you don't believe that. No one believes the shooting of Jacob Blake was unjustified, these people would be rioting if Robert Mugabe had been killed lol.

 

[Werewolf]

Anyone think the system of bail in the US gets a bit absurd?

I can understand having some amount deposited to try and ensure someone who has been charged complies with their bail conditions and turns up when they're supposed to etc.. I guess I can understand the bail bondsmen system whereby some third party can stump up the amount and then will track you down if you fail to show or flee.

But with these headline cases the amounts get a bit silly and seemingly rather pointless... bail was set at 2 million... so a bunch of rich donors have stumped up the cash... so where is the risk for the suspect? If he was going to flee over the border to say Mexico then it isn't his 2 million that stands to be lost. Seems somewhat unlikely that he actually is a flight risk tbh..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55024994

American bail is set up specifically to lock up the poorer members of society whilst offering a get out of jail card for the more wealthy.
Justice may well be blind, but in the US system she can still feel how much cash you've got in your wallet.

It's not uncommon for you to spend longer in jail awaiting trial than the penalty for your alleged crime for a lot of really minor things.

IIRC there are pre trial detention centres (jails) where a huge percentage of those incarcerated have been there for 6 months, with a year or more not being uncommon.
It's one of the reasons they have so many people who are innocent but take "plea deals" - because they can't afford to post bail, and know they're likely to be locked up for months before they ever get a chance to see a courtroom properly, and once they've done a plea deal they're screwed the next time they're arrested for anything.

 

[Dis86]

American bail is set up specifically to lock up the poorer members of society whilst offering a get out of jail card for the more wealthy.
Justice may well be blind, but in the US system she can still feel how much cash you've got in your wallet.

It's not uncommon for you to spend longer in jail awaiting trial than the penalty for your alleged crime for a lot of really minor things.

IIRC there are pre trial detention centres (jails) where a huge percentage of those incarcerated have been there for 6 months, with a year or more not being uncommon.
It's one of the reasons they have so many people who are innocent but take "plea deals" - because they can't afford to post bail, and know they're likely to be locked up for months before they ever get a chance to see a courtroom properly, and once they've done a plea deal they're screwed the next time they're arrested for anything.

It's also why we had 'excellent' TV shows like Dog, The Bounty Hunter.

 

[DisrupTor75]

Even you don't believe that. No one believes the shooting of Jacob Blake was unjustified.

It takes a lot of justification to unload seven bullets into someones back at close range regardless...

these people would be rioting if Robert Mugabe had been killed lol.

No it was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back that set it off. When you have case after case of blacks being ouright killed by the very people that are supposed to protect everyone equally then eventually somethings got to give. You can't keep your boot on their necks and expect them not to fight back at some point. Be that through peaceful protests, angry marches or worse.

 

[Energize]

It takes a lot of justification to unload seven bullets into someones back at close range regardless...

Indeed, such as fighting with police after being tasered and trying to drive off or reach for a knife in a car full of kids.

No it was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back that set it off. When you have case after case of blacks being ouright killed by the very people that are supposed to protect everyone equally then eventually somethings got to give. You can't keep your boot on their necks and expect them not to fight back at some point. Be that through peaceful protests, angry marches or worse.

Roland Fryers study showed that black people are not being killed more than white people, it's just a media narrative that serves to get views and votes for the democratic party.

People believe anything they see on social media these days.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/p...-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force

 

[arknor]

None of those replies address the issue that he was out of place with a firearm he was not meant to have which heavily contributed to the outcome of the situation he involved himself in. Ultimately it is true that he appears to have had to defend himself however he is responsible for inserting himself into an already volatile situation which lead to a TOTALLY AVOIDABLE outcome.

Interesting to see you guys completely let that go over your heads as usual.

He is not innocent, he needs to bare responsibility for his actions.

he's way out of his depth, obviously never been in a situation before where he doesn't have control and panicked.

seems kinda self defence but at the same time seems like because of his lack of experience his reaction was way over the top.

tbh he's really at fault for putting him self in that position.

it's like the uni students who want to live as adults without the responsibility of being an adult.

 

[dowie]

American bail is set up specifically to lock up the poorer members of society whilst offering a get out of jail card for the more wealthy.
Justice may well be blind, but in the US system she can still feel how much cash you've got in your wallet.

It's not uncommon for you to spend longer in jail awaiting trial than the penalty for your alleged crime for a lot of really minor things.

IIRC there are pre trial detention centres (jails) where a huge percentage of those incarcerated have been there for 6 months, with a year or more not being uncommon.
It's one of the reasons they have so many people who are innocent but take "plea deals" - because they can't afford to post bail, and know they're likely to be locked up for months before they ever get a chance to see a courtroom properly, and once they've done a plea deal they're screwed the next time they're arrested for anything.

I'm not sure that was the intent to the point where anyone can claim it was specifically set up for that but it certainly seem to be an effect, though there are bail bonds companies that exist for this reason, to provide bail for people who can't otherwise afford it.

The plea deals are messed up, on big source of leverage there isn't so much bail (though that could certainly apply if bail can't be provided) but also over charging and harsh sentences... if your odds are close to a coin flip but the difference between a plea vs a trail that could add many many years on then even innocent people can easily be induced into making a plea.

I guess at least at the lower levels the bail does function (where it is available), even if poor you stump up *some* cash but have the additional aspect of a bail bondsman tracking you down if you skip bail.. if you're middle class etc.. then you have a hefty sum at risk. I guess if you're rich then meh... but realistically you've got more to loose and so you're not going to skip the country on some minor crime charge.

The bit where it gets silly is at the extremes, I guess if there are states that go with large cash bail amounts and don't allow bonds men to operate or at the other extreme, serious crimes and high bail amounts because someone is wealth and a flight risk or just a high profile case... that's where rich people get to negotiate house arrest etc.. or high profile people have some pointless go fund me and then go through the charade of posting bail that they have absolutely no stake in and thus undermining the entire principle of it.

I guess this is also an issue with bail funds, it's become popular after BLM protests/riots for some woke people to donate to bail funds... but, like the go fund me type things for high profile cases, these undermine the point of putting up bail - some random kid from the ghetto gets arrested looting or some antifa type arrested after scraping with police and they're bailed out the next day, they have absolutely no interest in the bail money that was put up to secure their release so it has pretty much no function.

They should probably scrap the whole system of putting up a cash deposit/bail and either allow people out for certain crimes or put them on remand/in jail if they're a risk to the public.

None of those replies address the issue that he was out of place with a firearm he was not meant to have which heavily contributed to the outcome of the situation he involved himself in. Ultimately it is true that he appears to have had to defend himself however he is responsible for inserting himself into an already volatile situation which lead to a TOTALLY AVOIDABLE outcome.

Interesting to see you guys completely let that go over your heads as usual.

He is not innocent, he needs to bare responsibility for his actions.

You could say exactly the same thing about the people he shot, in fact more so as they were the aggressors and he was retreating. Getting shot was totally avoidable for them too, don't chase down and attack a guy with a gun.

No one is ignoring the firearms issue here - that's the one charge that probably has the highest chance of actually landing him some time in prison.

He's got an obvious defence to the other charges in that he tried to flee and he was attacked.

he's way out of his depth, obviously never been in a situation before where he doesn't have control and panicked.

seems kinda self defence but at the same time seems like because of his lack of experience his reaction was way over the top.

tbh he's really at fault for putting him self in that position.

it's like the uni students who want to live as adults without the responsibility of being an adult.

While I think it's bat **** crazy that a bunch of "militia" turned up, ultimately the local government and the police shouldn't have let it get that far... He was there to protect a local business and was there with the permission of the business owner. Arguably the rioters have far more blame here, they attacked him and they were attacking the police, destroying property etc... I don't think the blame really lies with the person being attacked, ultimately he put out a bin fire and then became a target for them.

 

[ANDREW GREEN]

Imagine being in this position and being called a murderer for defending yourself against a mob intent on your harm who just chased you

The reason they were chasing him down and attacking him was because he'd already killed someone. Stupid on their part granted