Mods used to provide balance, polish and/or alternative gameplay. Nowadays, there are many good, polished and balanced shooters and they provide a huge variety of gameplay elements so there's not much room for modders anymore. I don't think the lack of mod tools is the problem, I think modders can't compete with purchasable products.
Lack of modding has killed the hardcore PC fps
- Thread starter Warbie
- Start date
I don't think it's lack of modding that has killed hardcore FPS.
There are two main reasons for its decline, IMO:
1. The FPS market is much broader. FPS made it to console with Halo and iterations of CoD, and the PC market itself expanded away from just a pocket of enthusiasts. Games needed to be more accessible as you don't want to scare away, or otherwise limit, large sections of your userbase.
2. There's now a greater understanding from developers/publishers on how to exploit addiction behaviours in end-users. This has lead to progression systems and other time-based incentives that keep you playing. Tough and nuanced gameplay doesn't play nice with these systems.
There are two main reasons for its decline, IMO:
1. The FPS market is much broader. FPS made it to console with Halo and iterations of CoD, and the PC market itself expanded away from just a pocket of enthusiasts. Games needed to be more accessible as you don't want to scare away, or otherwise limit, large sections of your userbase.
2. There's now a greater understanding from developers/publishers on how to exploit addiction behaviours in end-users. This has lead to progression systems and other time-based incentives that keep you playing. Tough and nuanced gameplay doesn't play nice with these systems.
i understand there is a greater understanding.understanding how to give as little as possible for the most amount of money 
the big triple aaa games have this down to a t now.
as for nothing much modders can do or compete with. thats a bit odd. for eg in bf most of the best videos you see are from a mod.have been since bf3.
there is many things that can be done.if its allowed to be done is often the case and often it isnt because of DLC.or rights.licensing.
the big triple aaa games have this down to a t now.
as for nothing much modders can do or compete with. thats a bit odd. for eg in bf most of the best videos you see are from a mod.have been since bf3.
there is many things that can be done.if its allowed to be done is often the case and often it isnt because of DLC.or rights.licensing.
I agree, I modded for HL1 a lot with my much younger brother in law (who is still making a mod for Halflife called The Core).
My best map was one that had a central circle area, 2 rings running around it and small corridors linking them all and dark areas with flashing lights. It was fast as hell and great fun.
For me, the cost of games, they are the same thing over and over again and how they rely more on awards and achievements than gameplay and story is what has killed it. Add on DLCs, microtransactions for skins, weapons and alpha releases. Gaming gone mad.
Modding games really expanded the life of a game, there was always something to play.
My best map was one that had a central circle area, 2 rings running around it and small corridors linking them all and dark areas with flashing lights. It was fast as hell and great fun.
For me, the cost of games, they are the same thing over and over again and how they rely more on awards and achievements than gameplay and story is what has killed it. Add on DLCs, microtransactions for skins, weapons and alpha releases. Gaming gone mad.
Modding games really expanded the life of a game, there was always something to play.
Depends on the games but yea FPS - not a lot of modding going on; other games; some rpgs have massive modding communities.
Shadowrun Returns mods - were awesome
XCOM2 mods - again massive....LFD2 mods still going strong *but older game*
DLC has hurt it a bit - but if there is a will.....there is a way to mod
The big AAAs are really allowing persay; but the smaller ones are; maybe that's where we need to look at next
Shadowrun Returns mods - were awesome
XCOM2 mods - again massive....LFD2 mods still going strong *but older game*
DLC has hurt it a bit - but if there is a will.....there is a way to mod
The big AAAs are really allowing persay; but the smaller ones are; maybe that's where we need to look at nextI have to disagree - there is very little that pushes things today and, for the most part, fps play like dumbed down versions of what we had before. I enjoy BF, but movement and aim wise it's massively less demanding than any no. of fps from the mid 90s. Part of the issue is current fps are designed primarily for consoles, with the limitations pads introduce, and then ported to pc. Hence slow movement speed, little verticality in maps and uber quick time to kill as you just can't twitch aim or track well with a pad (I'm a big console fps fan btw. there's no bias here - just the way it is). Now compare this to when fps were being made primarily for the pc, with maps and modifications designed by pc fps fans. From a pure mechanics point of view these games/mods were more interesting to play with skill ceilings that eclipse what we have today. There's a reason players tire of current fps once they've unlocked everything - it's because the core games have little depth to them. Now compare this to something like Quake - you can play for a decade and still be trying to improve your skills.
This isn't a request for every fps to be a super speed, twitch aim, arena pro-fest. But there was a time when games like Counter Strike, RTCW/ET, TFC *insert great pc fps from yesteryear* etc were being released on the PC and rather than building from there, we've taken a big jump backwards. As others have said, dlc and the resulting lack of dev tools is a big part of this. Which brings us to another problem - we're limited to what devs produce, which often isn't great. Especially when it comes to map design. So we're getting fps designed for consoles with maps that aren't that great and no way to improve things
I agree with some of this. I do think that nowadays people can get hold of lots of different games which makes them more transitory compared to the days of buying one game and then playing the hell out of it for months, years, or in my case decades. If you only had a couple of FPS games then you'd want to exploit everything it had to offer in terms of mods etc. Nowadays they are 10 a penny. So I think in part it is simply a result of people spending less time with any given game. Modding was also something quite exciting and new in the 90s.
My initial reaction was that younger players are not less community focused as they all seem to use voice comms, rely on social media and suchlike which wasn't so common in the 90s. But having given it some more thought perhaps that in itself just means they are flitting around more with different people rather than spending a lot of time with a smaller group of people (ephemeral, I've learnt a new word
). However - when you look back to the 90s we still had frequent sequels. Quake 1996, Quake 2 1997, Quake 3 1999. People didn't hop straight onto the next game.
I think one element is perhaps that modding has been 'commercialised' to some extent. Some of the bigger free mods are now charged for e.g. Counterstrike, Natural Selection, Day Z etc. Developers are also churning out DLC map packs, skins, bla bla that used to be the domain of the modder.
As for the OP, I think lack of modding only really impacts on the 'hardcore' scene when it comes to competition mods and the like. All the Quakes were pretty hopeless in that regard out of the box (not sure about Q4 as never played that online).
There's more to it than just balance tweaks. Remember, Counter Strike, along with the massive influence it had on the genre, is a game in itself and wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for mods. The same with Team Fortress and various others. We'll never know what fps might have come to be, and the direction they may have pushed things, had developers been releasing development tools in more recent times. There's no doubt in my mind some of them would have been pretty ****ing fantastic and more focussed on what fps fans really want, rather than the appeal to the masses offerings we get today.
I have to disagree - there is very little that pushes things today and, for the most part, fps play like dumbed down versions of what we had before. I enjoy BF, but movement and aim wise it's massively less demanding than any no. of fps from the mid 90s. Part of the issue is current fps are designed primarily for consoles, with the limitations pads introduce, and then ported to pc. Hence slow movement speed, little verticality in maps and uber quick time to kill as you just can't twitch aim or track well with a pad (I'm a big console fps fan btw. there's no bias here - just the way it is). Now compare this to when fps were being made primarily for the pc, with maps and modifications designed by pc fps fans. From a pure mechanics point of view these games/mods were more interesting to play with skill ceilings that eclipse what we have today. There's a reason players tire of current fps once they've unlocked everything - it's because the core games have little depth to them. Now compare this to something like Quake - you can play for a decade and still be trying to improve your skills.
This isn't a request for every fps to be a super speed, twitch aim, arena pro-fest. But there was a time when games like Counter Strike, RTCW/ET, TFC *insert great pc fps from yesteryear* etc were being released on the PC and rather than building from there, we've taken a big jump backwards. As others have said, dlc and the resulting lack of dev tools is a big part of this. Which brings us to another problem - we're limited to what devs produce, which often isn't great. Especially when it comes to map design. So we're getting fps designed for consoles with maps that aren't that great and no way to improve things
CS:GO, Planetside 2, Insurgency all have hardcore elements and they take years to master(for those that can master them, most can't). More recently you have Overwatch which is also easy to start but very hard to master. All of these games are very different, all of them can be enjoyed by hardcore gamers. These games all get their 'formula' just right, modders can't add much to that.
The new Doom is a failure in terms of multiplayer because it's too similar to old arena shooters which, frankly, look great only when observed through the bias inducing lense of the past. Gaming has to change and evolve to stay relevant and entertaining.
Modders thrive in niches that have not been saturated by developers. Know a lot of open world, rpg mixed with rts games? No, that's why you have a million Mount n Blade mods. Know a lot of grand strategy games? No, which is why Crusaders Kings and Europa Universalis have lots of mods.
The spaminess in footage I watched of Overwatch put me off initially, but it looks fun still. Like TF2 is a fun, spam filled version of TFC. Whether it ticks the hardcore box, I can't say. I did mention in the original post that I'm not interested in ancient games or remakes of ancient games. CS:GO, for example, falls right into that category. That horse has been flogged and flogged and flogged. Insurgency is hardly new either (and not my bag at all - super quick time to kill etc). Planetside is all good. Gameplay doesn't blow me away, but there has to be a hit given it's impressive scope. Without meaning to sound harsh - at best these exceptions that prove the rule.
Doom multiplayer is a failure simply because it isn't very good. A weird half way house between arena shooter and I don't know what.
Agreed. Where we probably disagree is in what is saturated at the moment. Very little ticks the hardcore box these days. Overwatch and Lawbreakers may do. In a spammy kind of way. I'm into fast, ballistic shooters. Started with Action Quake, moved to Counter Strike, found it a bit too slow and found RTCW and ET. SOF2 as well and umpteen mods for Unreal. We really were spoilt for choice. Now there's next to no choice. Like wise with more arena influenced team shooters - Jailbreak to TF and everything in between. These aren't catered for either. Well, we have TF2. A spammy version. And what is it with spam these days? - every fps is full to the brim! CoD bases it's entire design around it. My guess is randomness coupled with a short time to kill lowers the skill ceiling such that anyone can jump on a server and get some kills. So all in the name of accessibility and $.
Part of TFC's brilliance was the custom maps, thousands of them. Barrysworld used to run a superb rotation of them including Total War, No Mans Land 2, 2MoreForts etc, Invictus etc. Every map was different lending to a vastly different set of playstyles being used because of them.
TF2 came along and my clan were less than excited about a cartoon game, when the original TF2 was exactly the opposite however for months after release there were sod all maps apart from the Valve ones. Our interest in the game died after just 5 months or so. Agree with what has been said in this thread though.
Mind you, part of the reason why I am into Overwatch is at least I know Blizzard will support the game well and that includes maps, which I can't see them charging for.
TF2 came along and my clan were less than excited about a cartoon game, when the original TF2 was exactly the opposite however for months after release there were sod all maps apart from the Valve ones. Our interest in the game died after just 5 months or so. Agree with what has been said in this thread though.
Mind you, part of the reason why I am into Overwatch is at least I know Blizzard will support the game well and that includes maps, which I can't see them charging for.
I think this is quite accurate personally. Where have the modders gone?
http://www.indiedb.com/engines/unre...&kw=&released=&genre=3&theme=&indie=&players=
They're building games with fully-fledged professional toolkits that are freely available from the likes of Epic, instead of hacking things onto existing products.
Anyway, if you like TF, you should really give Overwatch a go, it plays very similar, it's very well balanced for a 1.0 release, it's good quick, simple team FPS fun with no grinding weapon unlocks or any of that crap.
One of the main reasons I don't play any online FPS. That and because I wasn't playing often enough, I wasn't able to compete with the elitists, so it frustrated me more than I enjoyed it. I'm happy with my small list of games that I play over and over again.
A good bunch of people never got into fps modding, and never will get into, because the option isn't there. My brother, until recently, was lead character artist for Creative Assembly. He did Alien Isolation, Total War etc. It was mapping for Quake mods that got him the industry. That's quite specific when you think about it - making maps for Quake modifications. Through that the interest led into tinkering with gameplay elements and then onto making games. That doesn't happen these days. Today we don't get fps mods full stop, let alone the option to make maps for them. And on the topic of people jumping straight into making games - that's often not a good thing. With user made content it's natural selection in game form. The good stuff takes off and the crap never sees the light of day. I'm not going to name any names, but I've been involved in various alphas and betas of fps and without exception the majority of the developers don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to shooters. You wouldn't believe how little experience some of these guys have. Many of them have only ever played CoD! It's a constant exercise in face palming as they make art pass after art pass on truly awful maps and gloss over game breakingly poor design and gameplay choices. But hey, the micro transaction side of things works well ...
I could take the word hardcore out of this thread title and it wouldn't be far wrong.
Except there's still quite a few games that have thriving modding scenes. Maybe not 'hardcore fps's', but those hardly constitute the entirety of gaming. :/
And in terms of turning people into game developers, getting into that is magnitudes easier than it ever has been what with the availability of tried and trusted game engines and the many great courses you can take to walk you through things.
Agreed, this is just fps I'm talking about in this thread. It was the norm when a big game came out for the mod tools to be released. Imagine had that happened with Titan Fall, for example. Maybe we'd be up to our neck in maps now. Maybe there'd have been an entirely new, great mech modification. Maybe the game wouldn't be dead. Who knows.
I agree with what you say re. the tools available today. And that's great. You can make a game from scratch. What isn't great is that's a colossal **** tonne of work. The driving force in fps modding was always making content for games with an existing player base.
https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtournament/tutorials
The new Unreal Tournament isn't just moddable, it's being built by the community. Maybe Epic is in a unique position to be able to do it, but it's there
The new Unreal Tournament isn't just moddable, it's being built by the community. Maybe Epic is in a unique position to be able to do it, but it's there
Play PLANETSIDE 2.
This is brutal and has a learning curve and a half. If you are not either very experienced or very good at FPS games you will get destroyed.
It's free to play so you have nothing to lose.