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Learning to fly
- Thread starter cheechm
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Just out of interest what prices were you quoted for doing the same PPL in the UK? I think you mentioned it cost you £7k out in the states. I'd have expected it to be similar in the UK surely?
£7k seems to be around the norm here in the UK (well in Northern Ireland that was about the amount I got quoted).
Well done on getting your license. Really hope to go the whole way myself one day. May start a few lessons in the summer if the weather stays good.
Well done on getting your license. Really hope to go the whole way myself one day. May start a few lessons in the summer if the weather stays good.
Nymins where did you get that quote? I did all my hours with Woodgates but I don't even know if they do flight training anymore. Belfast flying club were the ones who quoted me £160/hr. I'm fairly near Aldergrove so it's much handier than going to Ards but the prices at UFC could be better I reckon.
UFC were around £7k a couple of years back. Checking their website now, the price they give for everything (medical, license issue, club membership, exams etc) is £7510.
As far as I know Aldergrove don't do flight training anymore unfortunately.
I'm not particularly close to Ards either, would be great if the City airport did lessons, but alas no. Kinda surprised they don't considering how little traffic goes through that airport! Good location for people and a decent size, seems pretty perfect for training!
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The annoying thing about Aldergrove is that you end up orbiting in the circuit while the heavier stuff lands which doesn't exactly help you learn or practice much. Belfast Flying Club are still active at BFS. City Airport might have too many restrictions for lots of GA traffic in the circuit - the residents wouldn't be too happy!
Well there is also a lot to be said for being based at a major airport. It gets your RT to a very high standard quickly, and enables you to fully understand different airspaces, clearances required etc. It'll prepare you well for when you want to do long cross countries and have to transit lots control zones
Major airports aren't good when doing circuity training, where you simply need lots of touch and go's. I did my PPL in Edinburgh but flew just up the road to a smaller airfield to do circuits.
Oh and on behalf of the 'heavies' I apologise for getting in your way
The RT wasn't a problem for me when I started off - listening to a scanner since I was a kid got me fairly familiar with the lingo and a little bit of VATSIM helped too. I really would love to get back into it again but I can't see it happening.
What would you advise about the idea of a career change to flying in your mid 30s? Still only late 20s here but if I could raise plenty of funds it is still something I'd consider a bit further down the line. I'm just not sure if airlines would be as favorable towards someone mid 30s as opposed to the young guys right out of college who would have longer careers.
What would you advise about the idea of a career change to flying in your mid 30s? Still only late 20s here but if I could raise plenty of funds it is still something I'd consider a bit further down the line. I'm just not sure if airlines would be as favorable towards someone mid 30s as opposed to the young guys right out of college who would have longer careers.
It's more difficult as you get older mainly because you are likely to lose a lot of flexibility due to family or other ties. If you're able to move at a moments notice and can live on a pittance then there are jobs out there.
I'm training for my commercial ticket at the minute and having done a lot of research, I'm quite likely to maintain my day job and fly in my spare time. Either instructing or charter work. Accumulating a six figure sum of debt on an integrated course and ending up on a rather meagre salary isn't an attractive option now that I have other responsibilities. A few of my colleagues hold a fATPL with anything from 300-1000 hours and they can't find a job that doesn't require a lot of initial sacrafice.
China, the Middle East, India and South America are all booming quite well at the minute and there are jobs out there. If you have no ties then these jobs are readily available, however you may have to pay considerable sums through "Pay to fly" schemes to actually secure them.
Bottom line is that if you want it bad enough and have enough money (realistically speaking, well over £100k) you can get a job. There are a lot of young rich kids out there who want it just as bad, if not more, so the competition is high.
Also, please don't use Vatsim as a learning tool for RT procedures. From what I've heard, it's slack on a good day
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It's more difficult as you get older mainly because you are likely to lose a lot of flexibility due to family or other ties. If you're able to move at a moments notice and can live on a pittance then there are jobs out there.
I'm training for my commercial ticket at the minute and having done a lot of research, I'm quite likely to maintain my day job and fly in my spare time. Either instructing or charter work. Accumulating a six figure sum of debt on an integrated course and ending up on a rather meagre salary isn't an attractive option now that I have other responsibilities. A few of my colleagues hold a fATPL with anything from 300-1000 hours and they can't find a job that doesn't require a lot of initial sacrafice.
China, the Middle East, India and South America are all booming quite well at the minute and there are jobs out there. If you have no ties then these jobs are readily available, however you may have to pay considerable sums through "Pay to fly" schemes to actually secure them.
Bottom line is that if you want it bad enough and have enough money (realistically speaking, well over £100k) you can get a job. There are a lot of young rich kids out there who want it just as bad, if not more, so the competition is high.
Also, please don't use Vatsim as a learning tool for RT procedures. From what I've heard, it's slack on a good day
I was talking to a guy recently who said the problem is that the courses ran by the likes of Oxford all offer a 6 month 'placement' and then the guys are turfed out with only a few hundred hours and the airlines just keep feeding off the latest batch of grads. Is this really what is happening? I really wouldn't fancy the sound of being out all that cash and then being turfed out after a few hundred hours with easyjet and hardly any jobs for the number of grads.
I could probably raise the funds if I put my mind to it but the flexibility would be a show stopper. Not a chance I could pack up the family and go fly from the Middle East. I think it is very much a single guys game. Or else a married guy who wants away from the wife!
Is doing the modular route much cheaper than an intense stint at Oxford for the integrated type?
Vatsim has its moments but when you get a few local controllers at BFS it sounds very similar to listening to the guys on the scanner albeit maybe a little less polished.
Scuzi's covered the main issues. I didn't start my pilot training until I was 24 and I know a number of people who were older when they started. If you can be fully qualified by early to mid-30s I don't think you'd have any extra issues getting a job. As a guess I'd say as you pass mid-30s it would get steadily more difficult to get a job, but certainly not impossible. Its all about right place at the right time but thats just luck!
Airlines are all different though, the Lo-co's prefer young guys purely because they know they can treat them badly and they won't know any better. A lot of proper airlines like older people as they are more mature and less likely to leave once settled.
As mentioned the hardest part is getting your foot on the ladder and getting the first job. For that you really do need to be flexible and be prepared to move where you have too, not necessarily to the far east but anywhere around Europe, at least for the first couple of years of your career. I was first with Ryanair and then moved to Aer Lingus. I spent 2 years living in Dublin before moving back to the UK. I've been based at Gatwick for nearly 3 years now.
It is absolutely possible for you to do it, but you have to make sure you are going in with your eyes open. It will require a lot of money (£50k at the VERY least), with a high risk of unemployment after training. The job is no longer as glamorous as it once was. We work strange hours, in a stressful environment. Airlines are in a fight with each other to reduce T&Cs as much as possible in a race to the bottom.
On the other hand, its a fantastic job. Ignoring the bad stuff (and there is a lot of it!) you are paid to fly a 75 ton toy that goes 500mph in challenging conditions (in a fun way
) with great views out the window, such as:I'm not sure how much you know about getting a job flying so excuse me if you already knew all of this, but with a PPL there are several steps you need to take:
With a PPL (and Class 1 Medical) you need to start your ATPL theory exams (14 theory exams which come in at just under £2,000 for exam fees/learning materials etc). These can take some time to achieve. There's not much point in hour building, unless its for fun, because let's face it, if you can't do the ATPLs then it can be a massive waste of money!
With ATPLs done, you can do your hour building (so you can get your CPL - commercial pilots' license). You need 150 hours total with 100 hours as P1. (Although you'll be needing 200hours before your license is issued)
Then you'll need to do a CPL (Single Engine) which is another 25 hours of flying. (Probably 20 on a Cessna or something and then 5 on a complex aircraft). Just the skills test for a CPL is a little shy of £1,000.
With a CPL, many people go on to do a multi-engine rating, which is about 6 hours on a multi-engine aircraft, a multiple choice exam paper and a 1 hour check ride. Multi-engine aircraft are expensive to hire. Looking at a minimum of about £300/hour.
After CPL, the next step is an instrument rating. You'll need to already have 70hours P1 including 50 hours P1 x-country and a CPL (to make things "cheaper"). IR is mostly in a simulator, and then about 15 hours in a multi. So that's not cheap.
Once you've completed all of the above, you'll have a frozen ATPL. Cost is between about £80,000 and £120,000. Only then will you be able to even think about getting a job. There are a few options people take:
1) Use their CPL to fly Cessna Caravans in the bush etc...
2) Do the flight instructor course and build hours by instructing (add about £8,000)
3) Buy into a job, as Scuzi was explaining. For instance, you pay about £40,000 and you'll get a 737NG type rating, and a job in an airline in Asia, for 500 hours.
Its a lot to think about. And you should bear in mind that a lot of training is cheaper done abroad, like the States. So there's some big choices/decisions to make.
With a PPL (and Class 1 Medical) you need to start your ATPL theory exams (14 theory exams which come in at just under £2,000 for exam fees/learning materials etc). These can take some time to achieve. There's not much point in hour building, unless its for fun, because let's face it, if you can't do the ATPLs then it can be a massive waste of money!
With ATPLs done, you can do your hour building (so you can get your CPL - commercial pilots' license). You need 150 hours total with 100 hours as P1. (Although you'll be needing 200hours before your license is issued)
Then you'll need to do a CPL (Single Engine) which is another 25 hours of flying. (Probably 20 on a Cessna or something and then 5 on a complex aircraft). Just the skills test for a CPL is a little shy of £1,000.
With a CPL, many people go on to do a multi-engine rating, which is about 6 hours on a multi-engine aircraft, a multiple choice exam paper and a 1 hour check ride. Multi-engine aircraft are expensive to hire. Looking at a minimum of about £300/hour.
After CPL, the next step is an instrument rating. You'll need to already have 70hours P1 including 50 hours P1 x-country and a CPL (to make things "cheaper"). IR is mostly in a simulator, and then about 15 hours in a multi. So that's not cheap.
Once you've completed all of the above, you'll have a frozen ATPL. Cost is between about £80,000 and £120,000. Only then will you be able to even think about getting a job. There are a few options people take:
1) Use their CPL to fly Cessna Caravans in the bush etc...
2) Do the flight instructor course and build hours by instructing (add about £8,000)
3) Buy into a job, as Scuzi was explaining. For instance, you pay about £40,000 and you'll get a 737NG type rating, and a job in an airline in Asia, for 500 hours.
Its a lot to think about. And you should bear in mind that a lot of training is cheaper done abroad, like the States. So there's some big choices/decisions to make.
An important point mentioned by Cheechm, the number one thing you need to do if serious about it is to do your Class 1 medical. Its not cheap, around £400 I think. Without it then afraid its don't pass Go or collect £200. There are a number of things that can catch people out. The main ones being Colourvision, Migraines, IBS etc.
So what's all the bad stuff then? Maybe you need to PM me that one!
To be honest I wouldn't want to be based outside of the UK and all the living out of hotels doesn't appeal too much. That probably means doing fairly regional stuff but would that not get boring? I mean BFS-LHR is going to take you down pretty much the same stretch of UL10 every day isn't it?
The other thing putting me off is that you just can't choose what type you will fly. Yes I could get a handy number flying Dash 8s out of the city but I'd want to be flying jets. Also everything in the UK is mostly Airbus and I'd be a big boeing fan (sad I know). This tells me that I should just stick to the flightsim!
The flexibility reasons are the same for Air traffic. It would be lovely to do all the training and get a job at BFS but it is far more likely that I'd get posted to some kip of an airport in the north of scotland and the mrs would hate the thought of having to move. Doing area control wouldn't appeal to me at all.
Maybe 9-5 (with flexi) isn't so bad after all (in current job)? I don't know what money the local low-cost guys would be on but as you say it certainly isn't what it used to be.
To be honest I wouldn't want to be based outside of the UK and all the living out of hotels doesn't appeal too much. That probably means doing fairly regional stuff but would that not get boring? I mean BFS-LHR is going to take you down pretty much the same stretch of UL10 every day isn't it?
The other thing putting me off is that you just can't choose what type you will fly. Yes I could get a handy number flying Dash 8s out of the city but I'd want to be flying jets. Also everything in the UK is mostly Airbus and I'd be a big boeing fan (sad I know). This tells me that I should just stick to the flightsim!
The flexibility reasons are the same for Air traffic. It would be lovely to do all the training and get a job at BFS but it is far more likely that I'd get posted to some kip of an airport in the north of scotland and the mrs would hate the thought of having to move. Doing area control wouldn't appeal to me at all.
Maybe 9-5 (with flexi) isn't so bad after all (in current job)? I don't know what money the local low-cost guys would be on but as you say it certainly isn't what it used to be.
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Ryanair's fleet is only 737-800s (about 300 of them), and they basically offer a buy-in scheme. They're more than happy to take low hour CPL holders, who have a type rating. I also forgot, you'll need to have an MCC for any job in an airline. Only another couple of thousand £££.
***** air are far from small and they operate 737's
Although quite why you would rather fly those old buckets when you could fly something more modern is beyond me 9-5 low cost airline, you are having a laugh!
As Blinkz said the T and C's are being driven down, led by Ryanair to push Pilot money to that of a bus driver if they get their way. The others are steadily following. Slowly they are removing all perks and bonuses and using new kids that shouldn't be at the controls pushing the money down.
I think the aim is to get them to American standards where the competition for jobs is high and money is so poor they need second jobs.
If I was in aviation Flying/maintenance I would stick with it and make what I could but I'd not entertain entering either as a young man anymore.
***** air are far from small and they operate 737's
9-5 low cost airline, you are having a laugh!
As Blinkz said the T and C's are being driven down, led by Ryanair to push Pilot money to that of a bus driver if they get their way. The others are steadily following. Slowly they are removing all perks and bonuses and using new kids that shouldn't be at the controls pushing the money down.
I think the aim is to get them to American standards where the competition for jobs is high and money is so poor they need second jobs.
If I was in aviation Flying/maintenance I would stick with it and make what I could but I'd not entertain entering either as a young man anymore.
By 9-5 I mean my current employment!