Lifting for gainzzz

[spoffle]

14/01/2014

I've been lifting on and off for a few years, nothing serious just messing about for fun, but for 2014 I've decided to take my lifting seriously, I'm mainly going for maximum strength, but I am losing body fat and gaining muscle too.

I go over to a friend's to get some liftin' on, I wasn't expecting much, especially from bench since my arms, chest and shoulders were already aching quite a bit, and I was running on about 3 hours of sleep in the last 24 hours, but I didn't do too badly.

100x10 for my warm up
110x10 for a slightly harder warm up
120x10 for a working set, I was going for volume due to my sore upper body

I tried a few singles and doubles with 140, which didn't feel too bad, but it wasn't a big benching night that night, I'm going to give myself a few days off for my upper body to recover so I can get back to doing sets with 140

After trying 140 a few times, I finished off bench press with:

100x10x6 for volume and endurance work.

I moved on to squats afterwards;

140x3 for a warm up

160x3 for another warm up

180x3x3 for a working set, though it felt quite light

200x3, I hadn't tried this before as I usually felt rubbish when it came to squats, it didn't feel much different, except my calves had started to ache a bit

220x1 I haven't tried this at all before, so I did a single to see how it felt, it didn't feel too bad but I didn't want to burn myself out, and my calves were aching more at this point, so I used a foam roller on my right leg for a few minutes before I finished off with

180x3x2

It was a good session, and I could feel dem endorphines afterwards.

I finished my session off by going to Asda with my friend, getting a few sirloins and making some gainz steaks with a veggie omelet (mushrooms, spring onions, red peppers and sweetcorn).

 

[spoffle]

What's wrong with veggie omelettes? Dat nutritional content though

Oh and thanks

I've got some videos from the session that I'll post up as soon as I can get them off my friend.

 

[spoffle]

These are on my friend's account (he posts on these forums occasionally)

 

[spoffle]

120Kg x 10 squats is not volume 125KG x 20 is

Shifting some decent weight there. Room for improvement on form though.

That was my bench pressing...

As for form, my biggest issue is my lower back, top of glutes insertion point/bottom of erector spinae muscles, which have caused me some issues over the years and get in the way of my squat and deadlifts.

 

[spoffle]

did i actually just read this correcty???













WTF..have i been wasting my time at the gym for all those years??

Exactly what I was thinking! I had to re-read it just to make sure I read it correctly!

Haha. I'm fairly large because I tend to put weight on quite easily. People are usually very surprised at just how much I weigh, I don't think my numbers are particularly impressive, though they are telling for where I could end up, so I've decided to actually take it seriously and try to get stronk.

 

[spoffle]

I am 24, 5"11,as for weight, I'm curious as to what weight bracket you'd honestly put me in from those videos (I know it can be hard to tell, but I'm just curious as to what people say).

I'm not sure how long I've been lifting for properly, the first time I tried lifting I was 17/18 though it was just a few sessions.

Then a few years later a friend got me a gym membership for my birthday, so I went with him for a few months.

Then nothing much for a few years, just the occasional trip to a local gym once every few months.

Then in December 2011 I got myself some weights from power house fitness (a squat rack, bench, 2 bars and a few hundred Kilos of Olympic weights) I used them off and on for a few months but they were taking up way too much space, so moved them in to another room to get the space back and used them a hand full of times over an 18 month period. They were still taking up too much space, so I cleared out the room they were in so I had more space to do squats and have been taking it seriously since mid December 2013.

 

[spoffle]

Not bad jeff.



In all seriousness it's probably because you're not using them when you lift...

I use my glutes for definite, as I get glutes pumps from squatting, my lower back, I'm not do sure. Though I do get lower back DOMS much stronger than in my legs.

It's a lot more prominent in my deadlift, where my friend pointed out that it looks like I'm shrugging to compensate for my weak lower back.

 

[spoffle]

Impressive weight for sure, but there is a lot going on there.

First, the safety issues.

Seeing this confirms what I was saying in the gym rats thread regarding your shoulders. You are missing a LOT of external rotation, which is most likely due to tight pecs and has nothing to do with your size. As you come out of the hole it looks like your wrists are going to snap off. There are instructions on how to fix this in the mobility thread.

My wrists and shoulders felt fine in this squatting session, no soreness, though I have had wrist soreness before, and I have noticed that lately as I've packed on upper body mass around my chest and shoulders, that my arm mobility has decreased quite a noticeable amount.

You have the bar in a har bar position, and yet because of your shoulders you don't even start with your elbows under the bar. You have poor, rounded/collapsed thoracic positioning at the top of the rep, which is exacerbated by your forward head position. Because of the amount of forward lean you get as you descend (not ideal for high bar), the weight tends to move up towards your neck. This is causing upper back rounding, which is compounded by general spinal instability. From the bottom of the rep, your unstable lumbar is evident. I looks like you're having to straighten your spine to lock out, and if this is happening here then it's definitely happening on your deadlifts.

Is har bar a typo of high bar, or actually something else? My bar positioning is an odd one for me, as I seem to have quite a protuberant lower cervical spine, which can make high bar squatting very uncomfortable for me (not on my neck before some one says it!). My lower cervical spine seems to protude more than my traps do at the back.

It's also bad practice to drop into the bottom of the rep like that, particularly when you have the above problems. People do this to develop bounce out of the hole to make it easier, but without the right positions there is a price to pay. This is also why your calves were hurting.

I think it looks like I was dropping due to the slow ascent I was making, I have dropped before, and it usually results in me losing balance, and when I'm keeping tension I can usually hear it through the floor (as odd as that might sound).

Secondly, and I'll only say this tentatively due to the difficulty of judging from that camera angle, but you don't even look to be going that deep. It seems like your 180 set is perhaps at parallel, but then it gets progressively worse. I didn't expect that given your previous comments, although it is clear why you need weight on the bar to get to the depth you train at.

I thought the same thing from viewing the videos back, though my friend who I nearly always train with assured me that I was going full depth, and he's not the type to just humour me, or say something I want to hear. If I hadn't gone full depth he'd still be smack talking me about it now.

Additionally, he moved the camera up a bit each time to make sure he could quickly spot me if I needed it.

Your issue is not a weak lower back. It's that your spine moves, putting load far more load on your erectors/lower back muscles than should be present.

I definitely have a weak lower back, I am in no doubt about that as it's been an issue for me for as long as I can remember, whether that's an issue here is another matter, though as I've said, my weak lower back is more of an issue with dead lifting.

Though it seems you're suggesting I'm sort of squatting low bar but with the bar in high bar position, is that correct?

 

[spoffle]

From a quick look I'd say you're somewhere around the 20st mark

Around?

 

[spoffle]

Ascent (going up), was very slow, I'm saying the descent looks very fast because of the contrast.

And yes, I can do paused squats, I have concentrically pressed up 185KG. If I was dropping, I'd lose my balance. With better camera angles, you'd see that it's not a bomb-out, but just looks fast by contrast.

 

[spoffle]

My thoughts:

Impressive weight, and there's no doubt you're a strong (if big!) guy - no doubt there at all. Lots of respect for that, especially at your age and your lack of experience.

However, please do stop contradicting/arguing with the experts (and by that I don't mean me), Icecold is a professional S&C coach, you're getting QUALITY advice from him for free. Leave the ego aside, you've proven that you're a strong chap, but you do have a lot of issues with your mobility, form and other little items that could cause issues long term, especially as you start to train more frequently. We've all have to drop big weights at some point and re-learn and get better.

WIth some help from us (icecold) you could get some amazing numbers up.

Please don't sweep aside the advice you've been given.

There's no doubts about the advice I've been given at all, it's the assumptions that have been made from a bad video that are the parts I am arguing against, simply because the videos were/are bad due to limited space (as Serge said).

There's a difference with regards to that, as Serge can see first hand with his own eyes what's happening, without the issues of camera perspective getting in the way of things, it'd be a different matter if we were having this conversation in person post having see my lifts in person.

Especially the notion that I cannot not do paused or concentric reps (which is definitely not the case, and it's a case of it being no argument, I most certain can do concentric/pause squats and Serge has witnessed me do this), so naturally I am going to argue against points like that, as they further cement my view that the video itself isn't particularly good if people's conclusions from it are that I can't do paused reps.

You've also taken contention of these points as there being ego involved, which isn't the case at all, I'm aware of the faults I have with regards to form (shoulder mobility being the most obvious one that I notice myself just from squatting). However, I am unsure whether this is down to pec flexibility, as I would have difficulty bench pressing to depth with a narrow grip, correct? When I squeeze my arms together, it's my lats that are tight and feel like they are hindering my external rotation as well as my shoulders, rather than my pecs.

Also to note, I have put quite a bit of mass on my arms and chest recently, and I have noticed a reduction in flexibility in things like itching my back, I used to be able to easily touch my middle back with my arm over the back of head, which is not something I can currently do since the increase in mass.

I've got nothing to prove, there is no ego, and I'm just doing it for fun. That aside, the points I am discussing are more to properly zero in on what the issues are, as it seems to some extent that I have simply assumed my weak lower back has been getting in the way of my squats and dead lifts is based on how my lower back actually feels on a day to day basis.

Also, there's been no mention of dropping the weights either, so I'm not sure why you think I am refusing to and where the ego is coming in to it.

 

[spoffle]

Well that's wrong. It's hip crease below knee, and I'm pretty sure Spoffle didn't go that deep. Being a bigger guy is not an excuse.

He's talking about the origins of "parallel".

I did say that I wasn't sure about the depth because it's hard to tell from that angle.

You did, which is why I've argued against it when it's been later asserted that I definitely am not breaking parallel.

It's not worth arguing about because it's going nowhere.

The only observation that's open to contention in your depth, as I said.

My other disagreement was that I was bombing out, and that the contrast of ascent speed compared to descent speed was misleading in that regard.

Depth pales in importance to the other things I mentioned, I think it was just funny considering the comments you made previously.

This is why I've contested it again, as you say it's hard to tell, but then assert that it's definite.

Benny was saying that to illustrate the point about bouncing, which isn't diminished by you stating that you can pause a decent amount of weight. I'm sure you can, but I'd bet there would be even more compromise in your spinal stability.

Benny said something different, in that I CANNOT.

You may be aware of SOME of the faults in your lifting, but you seem to have a hard time accepting that your point of view is incorrect and love arguing despite your limited knowledge and experience This doesn't bode well for continued progress.

I'm not having a hard time, to be blunt I am simply not blinding taking what you've said to be gospel. Just because of that, it doesn't mean I am dismissing your words, or just because I question something you've said, doesn't mean I'm having a hard time accepting anything.

If you notice, I've been asking you questions about the conclusions you've came up with, now you've said a few times that you don't want to seem obnoxious, and I think you might be feeling like that because I've questioned what you've said, but I'm doing that to find out more about what you're saying, not to simply say you're wrong, you seem to want to tell me, rather than talk.

As before, I asked if my pecs were tight, would that not get in the way of my benching with a narrow grip?

Stretch your lats too if they're tight, but it's your pecs that are more directly limiting external rotation in that position. The resources in the mobility thread include diagnostic tools.

Yes, so you're missing internal and external rotation due to tight pecs.

I am questioning you to get a greater understanding, not to tell you that you're wrong. It doesn't seem to me that it is my pecs, and that's okay, because I'm inexperienced.

But if you explained why you believe it's my pecs, so I can actually understand the bio-mechanical process that's going on, I might understand what you're seeing and why you're seeing it that way.

Is that really an issue?

Well this is a great example of why you should be more open to listening. To assume knowledge based on your admitted casual lifting is just silly.

As above, I am not closed to listening, but wouldn't you say it's silly of me to just listen and not actually word what I feel in certain muscles when I do certain activities?

Well, you should definitely drop the weights and work on technique. It's just that there is no point in mentioning this to someone who doesn't seem to be conceding some very obvious technical flaws.

I feel like you haven't been following my posts thoroughly, or you want me to listen and not question.

I like to question and I see no issue with it, you have questioned me a fair amount which I have not taken issue with, no?

Also, FF is mentioning dropping weights because that's exactly what he (and others here) has done where necessary. This is a credit to him as a lifter and why he will continue to make progress.

Maybe it's not your intention, but this comes across as a sly dig, to suggest I will not progress unless I do as I'm told. I'm not into that way of dealing with things, we're all adults, we should be able to discuss things and question things, no? I have not refused anything you've said, I have refuted a few points, sure because they're related to how I know I feel, compared to your observations of a poor video, but the undertones aren't cool as I haven't once said I'm not listening.

You seem to think I don't appreciate that you're trying to help, Freefaller has that impression too, and I'm not sure why as if feels like my posts aren't being read properly by those criticising, case in point; Benny thinking I was saying 120x10 was volume for squats- which in itself I'm not criticising, but it shows my posts weren't read properly.

 

[spoffle]

A narrower grip on bench will not be hindered by tight pecs, a narrower grip will be easier on tight pecs. I know this because I have tight pecs which have screwed my shoulder up, a narrower grip helps with my shoulder.stretching my pecs daily helps.

When I changed my grip to narrow, my bench press ROM increased quite a noticeable amount (the distance the bar travels) hence my reasons for querying this.

I get shoulder and wrist pains sometimes when squatting, what fixed this? Doing internal/external rotation work on my ahoulders, do you know who helped me with these issues? Ice, mrthingy but to name a couple, basically people on this forum.

And that's great.

Oh, and can you guess which people have been helpibg with my lumbar issues as well?

Sure, but mrthingy doesn't come across as having the attitude that anything he says must be accepted without question, else I be accused of having ego issues, which is a bit odd as insisting advice be accepted without question comes across more so like that, than my questioning to understand what's being said.

If that's not his intention, fair enough, but "you're not doing as you've been told" isn't really helping anyone, and comes across as unnecessarily confrontational.

What use is there accepting things without questions? How does that increase my scope of knowledge?

It seems people take it as a person affront to have their advice questioned, as if anything but blind acceptance is disrespectful. I would expect people would want their advice to be questioned as it shows the person is attempting to increase their knowledge of a subject.

Ascent speed does not make descent speed misleading on a lift, that's my view.

If you're willing to film sets from 120KG upwards, squatting as you have done previously making no extra effort to alter the speed of your eccentric/concentric phases I'm sure it will highlight to you what I mean.



I wouldn't tar us all with the same brush because I skim read your post

I know what your view is, the difference is that you are essentially trying to tell me that I am not feeling that I am keeping tension, which comes across as highly condescending. Especially because I actually *have* to make a concious effort not to drop on to things, due to my weight, stuff can break quite easily, so I learnt a while back to not drop myself on to things. When I sit down, I keep tension. So I'm sure you can appreciate how your comments are coming across with that in mind.

I did release tension at the very bottom to transfer the load on to my hips, but that's a world away from your insistence that I am just dropping the whole way down.

I was pointing out that you hadn't really taken the effort to read my post properly before jumping very quickly to try and criticise. I might be reading in to things there, but it shows an intent or desire to criticise above anything else, as it was pretty clear what I meant.

But as I said, I might be reading in to it.

But really, on what planet would I not want to prove my squatting? What do I have to gain by apparently disregarding advice (which isn't what I'm doing)?

I simply need to thoroughly understand what's being spoken about, without the condescending attitude and almost "do as you're told" suggestions.

 

[spoffle]

I would be very interested to see a video of you dropping down in to a bodyweight squat, as if you like you say this would surely highlight the difference of which you speak that I, or any other regular posters here, can't quite comprehend.



Understanding advice is important like you say, but questioning absolutely everything with an infant like 'why, why, why' response coupled with defensive statements and the impression of a lack of desire to change is mildly frustrating.

Regardless, all the best.

Your assumptions are not my assertions. Do you know why infants question things? Because they naturally crave knowledge, it isn't a trait of a juvenile mentality, it's because they want to know.

The condescending attitude is also not helpful to anyone. You are basically condemning the desire for knowledge, and defending that attitude with ad-hominen responses. It's quite unbecoming of you considering the status you seem to hold yourself with around these parts.

The fact that you are acting this way though seems as if you are advocating the notion of "shut up and accept what you're told", that's not conducive to much at all.

I like to learn things, not follow things.

Also, despite the complaints of me asking why, no one has offered anything up, which again doesn't help and compounds the issue.

Thats great.

Stretch your pecs, work on your shoulder rotation. You will magically not need to smash the sides of your hands on your rack.

You will need to do this daily for several weeks.

As I've said, I'm very interested (genuinely before more accusations are made of juvenile behavior) to know why it relates to the pecs. I can certainly feel the lack of shoulder rotational flexibility, so I understand that, but I do not understand the tight pecs part.

Also no one's suggested much on what to do to increase shoulder rotation mobility. Do you stretch it off by holding a bar as narrowly as you can as you would in a squat?

 

[spoffle]

Just to clarify, I have no issues with improving my mobility, at all, I just don't like the assumptions that people have been making, so I made a video today of me doing a paused squat with 180KG to establish I'm not actually having the issues that have been pushed.

But yeah, on to my latest training.

Wednesday 23rd

I need to sort myself out when I'm lifting, for some stupid reason I keep missing eating before I train, so I'm feeling rubbish when I do.

I started as usual with bench press,

Bench Press

100x10 for my warm up

120x10

130x5

140x4

Squats weren't happening due to the above.

It wasn't a particularly productive session due to the above, but at least I'm keeping on top of it to some degree.

Friday 25th

I had to make this session quick due to evening plans

The bar was already loaded up with 115KG, so I just started with that for my warm out, so my session went as follows for bench press

Bench Press

115x5

130x5

140x5

150x1

Squats

As per the first part of my post, I did some paused squats and took a video of a 180KG paused squat, I didn't have much time so I cut it short after that, and intend to have a proper squat session tomorrow or Sunday.

 

[spoffle]

I hope you didnt do 100kg x qp as your ACTUAL warmup? Otherwise good bye shoulders.

Huh? Why would my shoulders fall off? I can bench press 100 for more than 10 reps anyway, so I'm not actually pushing myself with it.

Your lumbar isn't flat at all at least from what I can see on my phone. You are strong, there's no doubt about that, but there seems to be a lot of instability in your lower back.

No doubts there, I've been saying this the whole time, my lower back is my weak point.

Is it just me, or does that look like he's just sitting on his calves/hams rather than actually pausing under tension?

I stop, sat with my arse/hamstrings touching my calves to complete remove any potential energy from a stretch reflex to remove the spring rebound.

This was for BennyC who was making assumptions and claimed I couldn't do paused squats, and that I'm bombing out and then using the bounce at the bottom to get back up, which I've demonstrated isn't the case at all in the video.

 

[spoffle]

I completely forgot to address some of your comments.

First of all, I resent the implication that I'm telling you to do what you're told, and not to question anything. This is a weak attempt by you to manipulate the situation here.

Resent away, but let me remind you that you have said on more than one occasion that you apologise if you come across as obnoxious, so you must have an inkling that it may be perceived that way. I am not ignorant to the way written/text based communication can be very easily misinterpreted though.

If you'd asked me why the problems presenting were due to the factors I was stating when we were first discussing them, I would have been happy to explain it to you and would have done so when I had the time. That wasn't the case though, as you initially dismissed what I, and others, were explaining.

Perhaps that just came across badly over written communication, but I wasn't the only one to notice. To then come back and say that the reason for this discussion becoming a little confrontational is that people weren't explaining things to you is a little rich, especially as it ignores the fact that I have explained certain aspects of the issues I have mentioned.

You would have a point had I begged you for advice, and then ignored the advice you gave, but that isn't happening. Also, to be blunt I haven't put much stock in some of the stuff others have said because it comes across as if they are only reading your posts properly, but not mine, so seem to think I am dismissing advice.

From a personal perspective, I no longer have the patience to diligently explain everything thoroughly all of the time. I have written guides and set up threads that hold the vast majority of the reference material needed to research your own problems. I still help people, because that's what I like doing, but my desire to invest time into individuals is greatly diminished if they don't seem to be listening. I'm not going write an essay addressing and explaining each of your issues in vast detail when you first pop up.

You seem to think I have asked you for advice, then ignored you, I haven't on either count. You have made assumptions which I disagreed with, and a few things were debated, which you didn't seem to like. Your response has very much seemed like "you're not doing what you're told", whether you resent that or not, it's how it's come across.

Why? For starters, you might not want to hear it, or you might be confused by the barrage of information. I prefer to point you in the direction of some of the resources available on the forum (MOBILITY THREAD), as this also is a great test of how willing you are to explore new points of view and do your own research. If you don't do this, and you respond badly to initial suggestions of dysfunctions and ways to fix them, it's a big red flag.

As above, you have offered advice, and acted like I have requested it from you. When you offer up advice the way you have, I don't think it makes much sense for your responses to be "research it" when you offered it up of your own volition.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was unwanted, or that you shouldn't have said anything, but that you are pretty much acting as if I have asked for help and then ignored the help I requested.

This isn't just a thing that happens on the internet. I don't go around gyms correcting everyone's form and giving them lectures. I'm happy to chat to people who I'm not actually working with about training, but they tend to ask politely for help and respect the time it takes to explain these things.

As above, nothing of this kind actually happened, and nothing was actually explained for me to respect the attempt at helping me learn.

I am still happy to help you with your lifting, but I suggest you start taking some of the spinal stability issues more seriously. This is your biggest problem. Your ability to do a pause squat is a non-issue, but like I said your spinal dysfunction was worse.

I think you're taking this a lot more seriously than I am, all the questions I've asked have been responses to things you or others have said, rather than a request from myself for help.

If your advice results in me hitting stronk squats, great. I think the purpose of my pause squat video has been lost on you, as it was a direct response to BennyC's posts, assumptions and then the "this is how you do it" videos he posted, here;

That's not a slow ascent, that's a drop. Your decent accelerates. Sorry, but there's no two ways about it!

Whilst in the hole it should be controlled.

I would imagine that you are not currently capable of performing a paused squat due to the inability to control your descent. Please prove me wrong but these are just my observations

For reference:

Spoiler

Edit: meant descent.

Where he seems adamant that I cannot do a paused squat, and even implies I am lying when I've told him I've done them before by asking me to prove him wrong.

Oh, and why is it your pecs limiting your shoulder? Because the muscles of your pec insert into your humerus, and when tight (from, for example, lots of benching) they limit proper external rotation.

This is all I asked for, and it could have done without the fuss around asking questions and borderline insults from others because I dared to ask a question and not blindly follow advice. To point out, I wasn't saying you were the only one suggesting I do as I'm told either.

I was talking about you not addressing some of the broader issues with his lifting, which you clearly haven't or they wouldn't still be there.

It's been suggested that it takes weeks to work on flexibility issues, so whether I have or haven't shouldn't matter surely, as there wouldn't have been enough time for anything to be working anyway, right?

You could take further videos from the side to clear up the depth issue, but it isn't as important as everything else.

I don't think there really is a depth issue, my last video, my hamstrings and glutes are resting on my calves at the bottom of the squat, I can feel them touching when I sat there, which means there isn't any more distance I could travel, if I squat with a more vertical back, the distances my legs travel won't change, they will just be on a different trajectory, and my knees won't be as far over my toes as they are currently.

 

[spoffle]

Lawd. I meant 'I hope you didnt just warm up with 100kg straight away', you should be using a much smaller weight, generally the bar. If so then ignore me.

Surely you have got to understand that a warm up weight is relative? If I "bench pressed" nothing, just my arms out in front of me, my chest would be under a similar amount of pressure as some people bench pressing 20KG.

 

[spoffle]

That's what I mean by it's all relative, I'm fairly heavy (147KG as of this morning), and I have thick arms and shoulders. I *have* tried warming up with less, it just does nothing for me at all, I don't start actually warming up until I get to 100KG, so I just skipped the lighter weights. I also have a very narrow grip (so my bar's travel path is getting on for about 2 foot in distance, just to help visualise the grip I use).

 

[spoffle]

Just duo when you post vids you only need the very last strong of characters after the watch= bit.

Are they not working for you how I posted them?

Whoooosh. Have fun with your shoulder goals of 2014.

But 100KG isn't the same to everyone. What's with the "do as you're told, or I'm going to make snide comments" attitude going around here?

Is there really any need to be condescending with the "whoosh"? I actually do know what you said, it didn't go over my head.

Weight being relative is what seems to be going over your head, it feels like you're basing your post on how you'd be if you warmed up with 100KG.