Liverpool Fans - Is Rafa Next To Go?
- Thread starter nikebee
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The constant **** he's going to be getting from our fans and the potential break down in his relationship with Gillett (which is being strongly rumoured). Who knows, if a bid were to come in for his stake which would bring him a quick profit then he may be tempted to sell up.
not going to argue as i don't know the finance but United is worth far more now than it was when the glazers took over so they could sell up for profit.
Liverpool this year are going through one of the most unstable times I've seen. Letting the yanks buy us out was a big mistake. But I dont blame Moyes and Parry for their choice. They thought the club would be in safer and more secure hands with business minded professionals... well compared to the more-money-than-sense Dubai lot. Sadly it seems to have backfired however...
People are also confused over the fees we had last year. The yanks never gave us the full bill for the players we brought in. Most of the money we spent was money we had from the champions league and player sales and swaps. This is something people get mistaken over. We spent no more than we usually do every season.
Another sad truth about the Yanks was the farce over the stadium. They came here spewing out crap about the greatness of the club and about how fantastic this stadium was going to be, yet at that time they knew fully well they couldn't afford it. I would challenge anyone to claim otherwise. To make such financial blunders over such large sums of money is stupid, and seeing them now trying to scrape around for pennies to buy the club and the money needed to run it, its sickening really. These where men with big promises, and supposedly big wallets, but now they're needing help from others to finance...???
However the problems over the owners of the club must not overshadow the on-pitch running of the club. In this area so far this season, Rafa has failed as a manager. He simply has on many fronts. Some of the performances of Liverpool this season have been downright terrible, LOTS of Rafas managerial decisions have been awful, aswell as his ability (Lack of...) to work with the players.
We have a much better side than we did previous years since Rafa started yet we're making no progress. Infact we look like we're going backwards. If you take a look at Everton who are now ahead of us in the league and compare our sides and the money between the two clubs... what does that tell you?
Rafa complains that to challenge for the premier league we need owners to pore money into his hands, yet he has so far done nothing to prove this point as a manager with the relatively strong side he has now. A side which is full of players he purposefully pointed out and bought. Most of these players are his first choices. ANd while he's had some success with the players he's brought in, most of them have been poor and not upto snuff.
The team is disjointed and Rafa hasn't done anything to remedy that. Which is his job over all else. Instead of worrying so much about funds and having silly games of public name calling, he should be focusing 100% solely on the team, the individual players, their morale, and over all people management.
However saying that, I dont want to lose Rafa. I really want him to stay and get to the bottom of the problems we're facing. I dont want to start over again and lose the good foundation he has built (Which he certainly has.) I would just like to see him change things, his ways, decisions and maybe also bring someone else into the club (Someone like Pako) to help him concentrate on other things.
He's definitely not a man manager. Hes a tactics and statistics man. But I feel we really do need someone who can rally the team and bring back the morale and spirit that seems to have faded since Pako left.
I still to this day blame Rafa for the destruction of Dirk Kuyt and Momo Sissoko. OK both players aren't fantastic (Still, he chose them and bought them) but they're much better than the players they are today. He jsut doesn't understand how to work with people IMO. He doesn't understand player confidence. He sees people instead as Chess Pieces and machines and expects them to do magical jobs on the pitch... most of the time in positions they're not used to and with no chance of forming a valid partnership by playing with the same players in the same position week in week out. He just doesn't get it and this is something he needs to get into his head if he is to win the league.
In my opinion, the only hope Rafa has at staying at the club and being successful is if the Dubai lot come along and buy us out, and give full reassurance to him and a load of money. If that doesn't happen... well then he's certainly gone in the summer and another sad 5 years will pass under new management before we see if we can challenge or not.
...sorry for the rant
People are also confused over the fees we had last year. The yanks never gave us the full bill for the players we brought in. Most of the money we spent was money we had from the champions league and player sales and swaps. This is something people get mistaken over. We spent no more than we usually do every season.
Another sad truth about the Yanks was the farce over the stadium. They came here spewing out crap about the greatness of the club and about how fantastic this stadium was going to be, yet at that time they knew fully well they couldn't afford it. I would challenge anyone to claim otherwise. To make such financial blunders over such large sums of money is stupid, and seeing them now trying to scrape around for pennies to buy the club and the money needed to run it, its sickening really. These where men with big promises, and supposedly big wallets, but now they're needing help from others to finance...???
However the problems over the owners of the club must not overshadow the on-pitch running of the club. In this area so far this season, Rafa has failed as a manager. He simply has on many fronts. Some of the performances of Liverpool this season have been downright terrible, LOTS of Rafas managerial decisions have been awful, aswell as his ability (Lack of...) to work with the players.
We have a much better side than we did previous years since Rafa started yet we're making no progress. Infact we look like we're going backwards. If you take a look at Everton who are now ahead of us in the league and compare our sides and the money between the two clubs... what does that tell you?
Rafa complains that to challenge for the premier league we need owners to pore money into his hands, yet he has so far done nothing to prove this point as a manager with the relatively strong side he has now. A side which is full of players he purposefully pointed out and bought. Most of these players are his first choices. ANd while he's had some success with the players he's brought in, most of them have been poor and not upto snuff.
The team is disjointed and Rafa hasn't done anything to remedy that. Which is his job over all else. Instead of worrying so much about funds and having silly games of public name calling, he should be focusing 100% solely on the team, the individual players, their morale, and over all people management.
However saying that, I dont want to lose Rafa. I really want him to stay and get to the bottom of the problems we're facing. I dont want to start over again and lose the good foundation he has built (Which he certainly has.) I would just like to see him change things, his ways, decisions and maybe also bring someone else into the club (Someone like Pako) to help him concentrate on other things.
He's definitely not a man manager. Hes a tactics and statistics man. But I feel we really do need someone who can rally the team and bring back the morale and spirit that seems to have faded since Pako left.
I still to this day blame Rafa for the destruction of Dirk Kuyt and Momo Sissoko. OK both players aren't fantastic (Still, he chose them and bought them) but they're much better than the players they are today. He jsut doesn't understand how to work with people IMO. He doesn't understand player confidence. He sees people instead as Chess Pieces and machines and expects them to do magical jobs on the pitch... most of the time in positions they're not used to and with no chance of forming a valid partnership by playing with the same players in the same position week in week out. He just doesn't get it and this is something he needs to get into his head if he is to win the league.
In my opinion, the only hope Rafa has at staying at the club and being successful is if the Dubai lot come along and buy us out, and give full reassurance to him and a load of money. If that doesn't happen... well then he's certainly gone in the summer and another sad 5 years will pass under new management before we see if we can challenge or not.
...sorry for the rant
If there are people willing to buy you, there are people strongly rumoured to be after us.
Not because im a Liverpool fan but we were and still are an excellent buy due to the potential financial growth the stadium would bring.
The financial markets have had no effect on our stadium 
The plans were scrapped (well altered) because the increased cost of all the extravagance, the basis of the stadium and all its amenities are going to be the same. Also DIC have shown that the credit crunch has made little difference to major investments, they've invested $5bn in the last few months.
Regarding short-term/long-term investment, of course over the extreme short term its not going to make money because they've to pay for the stadium but Arsenal have shown the difference a new and bigger stadium can make even after just the first year of opening.
The plans were scrapped (well altered) because the increased cost of all the extravagance, the basis of the stadium and all its amenities are going to be the same. Also DIC have shown that the credit crunch has made little difference to major investments, they've invested $5bn in the last few months.Regarding short-term/long-term investment, of course over the extreme short term its not going to make money because they've to pay for the stadium but Arsenal have shown the difference a new and bigger stadium can make even after just the first year of opening.
The financial markets have had no effect on our stadium
Regarding short-term/long-term investment, of course over the extreme short term its not going to make money because they've to pay for the stadium but Arsenal have shown the difference a new and bigger stadium can make even after just the first year of opening.
how would you argue that the financial markets have had no effect on your stadium plans exactly? it's more difficult to borrow costs of borrowing have risen, costs of materials have risen which would require more flexibility in your borrowing which you can't manage at the moment. A new stadium was part of the plan pretty much of whoever was going to take over you wasn't it? and any stadium would need financing by whoever bought into the club so essentially if you compare now and before you were bought out. The cost of purchasing a share of the club has risen to whatever Hicks valuation of it would be, the cost of borrowing to purchase and fund the running of the club has risen. if they were going to give you a new stadium if they had taken over then the cost of building that has risen, if they weren't then they've kind of been railroaded into it and that additional cost has to be taken into account in order to gain a longer term revenue stream that they had initially decided against. Media deals were already agreed and known about when the interest was declared, value of your assets will have risen but so will the debt secured against the club.
I mean, i've no doubt that hicks could sell his portion for a profit but how much profit and whether he considers that short term profit worth it instead of the long term gains you've mentioned yourself remains to be seen. At the end of the day it depends how much hardball he decides to play with DIC but you have to hope an investor meets his valuation because the fans aren't going to make much difference. and just to clarify i think it's a real shame that they can't.
You said the financial markets have restricted our stadium, they haven't. The plans are being changed because it turned out the cost of all the extravagance wasn't worthwile and had it been know to begin with it wouldn't have been considered.
Im not sure you know what your talking about (in the nicest possible way
) if you think that the credit crunch has had any real affect on the stadium. Hicks was on CNBC the other day saying that the only difference is that Banks are slightly more nervous about doing large deals on there own and have gone back to the old way of teaming up and splitting it which meant it takes longer. An extra 1-2% for a year or so is not going to have much of an impact on a 50 year investment is it? Especially as the bulk of the money for the stadium won't be borrowed for another year. Cost of materials have been going up for many a year prior to the takeover so i can't imagine that was unforeseen (same could be said for the credit market) so that wouldn't change the investment deal either.Of course if DIC were to make a bid it would cost them more to buy the club making it less attractive but its the stadium that holds the potential and untill thats done and dusted its still an attractive buy.
http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=520487
it's just what i read, i'm by no means a financial expert or anything and i'm sure the papers are just scaremongering but if i remember rightly they had a team come up with the plans and projected cost and then quite suddenly cut back on the stadium idea yeah? as in they approved it and then cut back on what they were going to do. seems stupid really if they could make more money off the other stadium.
*edit: i have no doubt that you are more aware of financial markets than me btw.
it's just what i read, i'm by no means a financial expert or anything and i'm sure the papers are just scaremongering but if i remember rightly they had a team come up with the plans and projected cost and then quite suddenly cut back on the stadium idea yeah? as in they approved it and then cut back on what they were going to do. seems stupid really if they could make more money off the other stadium.
*edit: i have no doubt that you are more aware of financial markets than me btw.
Well when the plans were first released the Yanks said that they set the architects a time scale which was far less than they'd normally be used to, to minimalise any delay. Seemingly they rushed the plans and done a very poor job of the costing and when further costing was done it was found to be way over budget (as much as £150m depending what you read). Basically it seems the stadium mess was more to do with a balls up between the yanks and the architects rather than unforeseen costs or interest increases, which is why they are supposed to have made a far bigger deal of the costing this time round.
Also regarding the credit crunch and the stadium; its reported that only £60m of the loan is going to be put into the club as working capital and even if you were to say all of that was to go to the stadium then an increase of 2% interest would only work out at £1.2m per year and rates are expected to drop gradually from now on so not much of an affect on a £300m investment.
Also regarding the credit crunch and the stadium; its reported that only £60m of the loan is going to be put into the club as working capital and even if you were to say all of that was to go to the stadium then an increase of 2% interest would only work out at £1.2m per year and rates are expected to drop gradually from now on so not much of an affect on a £300m investment.
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This mornings Guardian and Times will be running similar stories regarding talk of DIC investing: According to these stories it seems as if its Gillett thats been negotiating with DIC over the possibility of buying Hicks' stake out. As reported before Gillett is supposed to be unhappy with Hicks' level of involvment (was meant to be a silent partner), the refinancing and the talk of Klinsmann.
From the sounds of it DIC will be backing Gillett rather than taking a hands on role (like Hicks' was supposed to do) and the offer will provide Hicks with a tidy profit in a short space of time. Although Hicks' can't be forced to sell and its unlikely DIC will pay over the odds for his stake, Gillett is considering the possibility of not agreeing to the refinance which Hicks can't go ahead with without Gilletts agreement. This may then put Hicks in a position where selling up is the best option. The guardian does however state that Gillett has an option to buy Hicks' stake though doesn't go into detail, presumably it is a first refusual rather than a set fee.
Hopefully Hicks will be watching on monday as there's set to be a few messages for him.
Even with the frustration of all the previous takeover talk and the relief when it finally went through, i really hope its true
From the sounds of it DIC will be backing Gillett rather than taking a hands on role (like Hicks' was supposed to do) and the offer will provide Hicks with a tidy profit in a short space of time. Although Hicks' can't be forced to sell and its unlikely DIC will pay over the odds for his stake, Gillett is considering the possibility of not agreeing to the refinance which Hicks can't go ahead with without Gilletts agreement. This may then put Hicks in a position where selling up is the best option. The guardian does however state that Gillett has an option to buy Hicks' stake though doesn't go into detail, presumably it is a first refusual rather than a set fee.
Hopefully Hicks will be watching on monday as there's set to be a few messages for him.
Even with the frustration of all the previous takeover talk and the relief when it finally went through, i really hope its true
The rates are dropping but the Banks are putting their margins up and like you mention anything they see as a risk they aren't willing to touch, that is the problem right now.
Maybe some Liverpool fans thought getting this loan would be nice and easy? Weren't some saying they wouldn't load the club with debt and you would safe and secure unlike Arsenal and the Mancs? Didn't the Liverpool board also say DIC's offer was bad and it would put the club at danger? Arsenal struggled like hell to get the loan through and had a very sensible board and manager who all made sacrifices to make sure everything went to plan. Wenger didn't spend much and the board had to negotiate some sponsorship deals in such a way where they would work out less in the long run but the sponsors would cough up more money upfront.
I have mentioned this before but I think Rafa is more worried about his team than the club in the long run. I think Carragher summed it up best, "You could say the spending power of other clubs is making it more difficult. But then you look at Arsenal and what they've done under Arsene Wenger without spending big and you realise you just have to get on with it.".
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LoL.. 606.. the show that cuts off callers the moment they start talking sense. They did it time and time again towards the end of Jol's term at Spurs - baiting the most retarded fans to call up and if they start talking sense get them off the air as fast as possible
Hmmm, hope the americans take the quick profit and walk away, but not too confident that they will. Suspect they'll be stubborn and stay
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7197675.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7197675.stm