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Losing control of high powered cars

Discussion in 'Motors' started by Drollic, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 16,509

    Problem is we don't get taught this stuff in the UK. We get taught how to be Mr Safety and do the police shuffle, but they don't teach you what to do when you get in to trouble. You can bet that when the average driver starts to aquaplane they mash the brakes in panic, then they crash and/or cause a pile-up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  2. BUDFORCE

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 3, 2012

    Posts: 2,017

    You worst thing you can do. Just gotta ride it out lol. No word of a lie, about 5 minutes in to my driving test, on a 60mph road there was a rather large puddle, and there was someone up my arse and I thought he would do me for slowing down or trying to avoid it, hit it probably doing about 50, completely aquaplaned over it.

    Also if you think it's fun in a car try it on a motorcycle :)
     
  3. Drollic

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 24, 2013

    Posts: 3,542

    Location: East Midlands

    @Housey

    That M4 video you posted is exactly what I'm referring to, and pretty much what I witnessed with the accident although the acceleration would of been at a higher speed (there could be more to it of course). He's already moving in a straight line before probably WOT on a dry road in a straight line. I'm more interested to know what actually causes it. Is it just the slip and lack of traction on the one tyre with the other still gripping? I get the driver may be inept at controlling the throttle etc, but what causes it so much to override electronic aids. The m4 video posted is nothing out of the ordinary and plenty of people will do similar things in similar conditions and it's fine. It's not like planting your foot on the floor coming off a sharp bend in the wet on a cold day.
     
  4. Minstadave

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 26,260

    Location: Rutland

    I don't really understand the R8 crash either. Low speed, looks to be going pretty straight, AWD isn't it too? Buries the throttle and straight off the road.
     
  5. jpaul

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 10,655

    interesting comment about inadequacies of traction control systems -
    ... so on ev's they monitor current going into drive motor , begging the question on what is at the bleeding edge of NA cars, and is a tesla much more 'stable'
    ... the m4 example can still be a blow-out/oil too;
    with the bigger tyres contact patch on supercars,so lower pressure/in^2 does that incresase susceptibility of system to break traction with oil on surface say.
     
  6. Housey

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Feb 21, 2006

    Posts: 26,554

    The M40 has
    It also evidences my point about lack of throttle control. That was 100% avoidable.
     
  7. Meaker

    Mobster

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 3,614

    Especially if they have put something like CUP2 sport tyres that are more race focused than road.
     
  8. Havana_UK

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 14, 2004

    Posts: 4,739

    Location: location, location

    It is also 100% avoidable (at least on a stock M3/M4) by leaving traction control turned on! These modern turbo cars develop a huge amount of torque at low revs which is what causes the wheels to break traction.

    Normally this sort of accident is preceded by the words "watch this", and as you say is almost always down to driver error.
     
  9. mjt

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 31, 2007

    Posts: 18,128

    I changed from second to third WOT mid-overtake on some dodgy camber B-road in M3 competition and didn’t stack it. The rear squirmed a little, but I wasn’t stupid enough to turn the TC off so all was well.

    People really are idiots. Unless you are a Drift King, leave TC on. Plebs.
     
  10. Housey

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Feb 21, 2006

    Posts: 26,554

    I drove a Mercedes GT-R at pace, in damp conditions on bumpy B roads from cold. I did around 50 miles in it with the Mercedes sales person sitting next to me. This car has a reputation for being skittish and I never once found myself worried it was going to get the better of me. The Mercedes sales person even said he had not had as much fun in said car simply sitting and enjoying the experience. I have driven M3/M4's in the current model in similar conditions again without the slightest feeling I was about to stack it. Difference is I suspect, I grew up when traction control was non existent and then rudimentary at best. My GT3 had ABS that was it, but 911's have good traction and I could see, with TC off on old tyres and in the wet how you could bin my R8, but I don't because I respect the car and drive it accordingly.

    Throttle control is VITAL in a car that can be a handful but many drivers are on or off and lack the subtly required to keep a car at that point JUST before the TC light comes on. The M4 was lighting it up all the time, but I got used to that and drove around it and I think the Merc GT-R maybe lit up twice before I understood how to deploy its power properly and effectively. My god that is half the fun of a powerful car, learning to control it without the systems getting in the way and then when you get to that point, with them fully off so you can really stretch its legs. Losing any car in a straight line without something breaking or some unseen disaster on the road surface (it happens) is the drivers fault, period. I remember the first time I took out the Griffith I made an overtake at pace and when the rear end caught the white line it went all tank slapper. My fault, never did that again, caught it that time but could easily have binned it. Had I it would have been my fault, not the cars or roads.
     
  11. Housey

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Feb 21, 2006

    Posts: 26,554

    Kept his foot in and suspect no TC or came in too late. Manual car by the sounds of it so perhaps a bit of bin diver clutch in, revs, drop clutch to 'watch this' to all the kiddies with cameras.

    Backfired sadly and 1 less R8 V10....which means mine is worth 5p more now. Excellent.
     
  12. AhhBisto

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 23, 2019

    Posts: 366

    Don't forget tyres, right tyres for the conditions. Had some cheapies on a focus I bought once, driving it home and the thing was sliding around corners in warm weather the tyres were rock hard!

    Right tyres for the conditions always the first choice to look at.
     
  13. agw_01

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 11, 2004

    Posts: 19,599

    Camera angle isn't great on that Audi vid. I know that roundabout and just as you come off the exit, the road drops and you enter quite a tight left bank which probably unsettled the car under full throttle.
     
  14. Lopéz

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 27,453

    Location: Leicestershire

    This

    This

    This
     
  15. LiE

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 2, 2005

    Posts: 20,071

    Location: Milton Keynes

    Seems mostly high powered RWD cars and flooring it = bad stuff.
     
  16. MeEsH BaKkA

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 12, 2002

    Posts: 2,947

    It’s the suddenly letting off the throttle that gets ya.
     
  17. theone8181

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 27, 2013

    Posts: 4,069

    I recommend going to the Porsche driving centre at silverstone, very useful at showing lift off oversteer (what's described above) and can catch people out quite easily.
     
  18. Drollic

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 24, 2013

    Posts: 3,542

    Location: East Midlands

    The thing is, lift off oversteer shouldn't occur hardly at all in a straight line as there's barely any steering input. The inertia should just load the front end fairly equally I'd think.
     
  19. Housey

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Feb 21, 2006

    Posts: 26,554

    Having done that a few times, I suggest a 106GTI and a wet island is a FAR better learning experience. :D

    Life off oversteer is a FWD thing, not a RWD thing really.
     
  20. dvinell

    Gangster

    Joined: Oct 31, 2010

    Posts: 117

    I’d suggest that many ordinary drivers will end up binning a powerful RWD/4WD car if it gets seriously sideways from going in a straight line. Their best option is keep all the gizmos turned on and not end up sideways in the first place.

    Part of the problem is that if you are on a corner on a track with plenty of space, and you overcook it, it’s easier to recover from because the slide is generally a result of the combination of both cornering forces and acceleration. Maybe the cornering force was already large, and that slight extra throttle input was too much. So a little bit of opposite lock and/or a small throttle reduction will keep you pointing mostly forwards even if you curve a wider arc and lose some time.

    Those slides in a straight line on a road with a lot less runoff - there were no cornering forces! The car has slid because of much too much throttle vs available grip, and this takes a lot of practice to recover from. The car might well have started to curve around a corner that isn’t there, so you’ve got two problems: 1. Stop it sliding, possibly by easing off and counter steering. 2. Get the car pointing in the right direction again to avoid hitting anything without another slide.

    Most of the above videos failed at step 1, either by counter steering too much and going off the other way, and either not easing off the throttle or shutting off the throttle too much or braking.

    The drivers showed poor judgement, but ... it’s much harder to recover from than it looks, unless you have practised.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019