Lowering - Why??

Clarkey said:
Looks about an inch lower to me?
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Could be, point is thats a cup car which is only ever used on track as it would not function on the road and won the championship.

Yet it's clearly not slammed, you can still stick your hand in the gap between arch and tyre at front and still see the tyre in the rear. As mentioned it will also be running different front arms to allow it to run slightly lower without compromising the suspension setup/performance.


If I went that low with mine, the front arms would not be parallel to ground any more, they'd be angled up, it would introduce bump steer, understeer, lack of grip and suspension grounding out, in short it would handle worse, infact probably be terrible.

Can you not realise that?
 
Clarkey said:
No problem with that, just thinking of Al Clarks M3 which is dropped nicely and runs hard around the Nordschleife regularly, a track known for being bumpy and unforgiving.

In my experience, the link between handling/comfort and ride height is pretty tenuous and anything can be made to work if done well.

Oh, FWIW though, those E36 supertourers are fully decked, but there is no actual E36 left in the suspension systems.
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Here is Als car when he had KW's and mine:-
IMG_9780s.jpg


ff6t.jpg



That looks very similar, angle of camera and distance from car when taking photo can make things look differerent and I've used the heights he shared with me. His new setup is lower as he is using nitrons and different suspension arms to go lower. I also think Spires-ST setup Al's car too and they too gave me same height settings.
 
Big difference between roads and track setups. I have caught the little lip on the bottom of my bumper on a couple of things, interesting tho not in multi-storeys just peaky streets.
 
Mine has the lower arms angled up a little, that doesn't have bump steer, doesn't understeer, doesn't ground out. That's all I know. I'm not about to get defensive about it, end of the day I couldn't give a monkeys how high someone else sets their car. Don't be afraid of what you haven't tried though ;)

For the sake of it, have a nostalgic photo of a low bmw doing some grip driving and trying it's best to lift the inside front off the floor :p
txaspx.jpg~original
 
Clarkey said:
Mine has the lower arms angled up a little, that doesn't have bump steer, doesn't understeer, doesn't ground out. That's all I know. I'm not about to get defensive about it, end of the day I couldn't give a monkeys how high someone else sets their car. Don't be afraid of what you haven't tried though ;)

For the sake of it, have a nostalgic photo of a low bmw doing some grip driving and trying it's best to lift the inside front off the floor :p
txaspx.jpg~original
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At the end of the day, I can't go far wrong by using the ride heights given to me by suspension tuners who also competitively race M3's and deem the settings I have best for what I want. Plus the fact that so many CSL owners with KWs and M3 owners with KW's who had setups have being setup at the same ride heights as given to me. I'm off to a good start which is also good on road too. :)

A couple of guys I know from my CSL days are running the same setup as I've gone with, though one like me now has an M3, both are doing Donnington in 1:16-1:18 lap time, I might not be capable of that but that is bloody quick and they are both at stock power, so 333 and 355.

It's a starting place, after a few track days I can speak with Simpsons tell them my thoughts. :)
 
For sure. I would leave it where it is then, height changes are unlikely to have any real effect on the drive. Every time you alter it though, your geo settings go out the window. With a tried and tested suspension, height, and geo you have a really good base and tweaks to air pressures and damping should be enough to fine tune it to a particular track day.
Front camber will eliminate that entry phase understeer. You say it's nice but I can't stand it and like the front end glued. Less rear damping helps the initial turn in and traction for me. I don't have KW but for me I like it with the rear set to 1/3rd the stiffness of the front. You can see from the heat haze that I'm fully into the acceleration phase by that point of the corner, my entry speed is pretty banzai too.
Will be back at Oulton end of Feb, you should come, I love that track, make sure your brake pads are up to it though!
 
Clarkey said:
For sure. I would leave it where it is then, height changes are unlikely to have any real effect on the drive. Every time you alter it though, your geo settings go out the window. With a tried and tested suspension, height, and geo you have a really good base and tweaks to air pressures and damping should be enough to fine tune it to a particular track day.
Front camber will eliminate that entry phase understeer. You say it's nice but I can't stand it and like the front end glued. Less rear damping helps the initial turn in and traction for me. I don't have KW but for me I like it with the rear set to 1/3rd the stiffness of the front. You can see from the heat haze that I'm fully into the acceleration phase by that point of the corner, my entry speed is pretty banzai too.
Will be back at Oulton end of Feb, you should come, I love that track, make sure your brake pads are up to it though!
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My understeer is at limit, on track focused tyres in this cold winter wet weather with no heat in the tyres. Yet considering the corner speeds are high considering the lack of grip. In the dry, with warm tyres it will be as you describe. :)

The 911 is same, understeers on cold tyres, heat them up or in the dry it's hugely quick. :)

Please come back dry warm weather. :(
 
I know what you mean, the limit often isn't that high and I find it can be hard to feel for it until you have found it. Despite solid mounting/bushing everything and using good tyres, it doesn't communicate that well through the wheel.
 
Clarkey said:
I know what you mean, the limit often isn't that high and I find it can be hard to feel for it until you have found it. Despite solid mounting/bushing everything and using good tyres, it doesn't communicate that well through the wheel.
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Have to say the M3 communicating it brilliantly now on the front-end, the steering and feedback has never being so good, not quite 911 but it's certainly close now.

It's like pushing into a rounda-bout and I can feel the front is getting low on grip, push bit more grip marginally comes away, push a bit more and she pushes wide, use the throttle to bring rear waggling on exit.

The feedback is best it's ever being and has certainly improved since dialling in these ride heights as has rear grip, before it would spin up in 3rd gear in the wet with full throttle, now it does not.

Hence I can't wait for dryer warmer weather to get a feel for how much it's improved, but it's wet ability and feedback is night and day improved. :)
 
Clarkey said:
Out of interest how much caster do you have?
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Not adjustable, as KW clubsports have special top mounts with a pre-set castor which was 6.5 ish or +6.38minutes to be exact.

Now it's lower that might have changed, when it's corner weighted I shall get the alignment re-checked and printed, I think going lower gives more positive caster. :)
 
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I fitted coilovers to my Fiat many moons ago. Was one of the dumbest thing I ever did.

I really can't understand why anyone would lower their car enough to not clear a speed bump. It's just idiotic. But then, I suppose it's no different to using tyres so thin that you'd crack an alloy if you hit a pot hole.
 
I dont see an issue with lowering a car providing its done correctly and with quality components.

Not that lowering it badly instantly means crap parts have been used. My MX5 as I bought it:



And as it sits now:



It's still lowered, but instead of it being set up to scrape off every bit of gravel you drive over its now set with the wishbones parallel to the ground and a proper alignment setup. The coilovers are the same - Bilstein B14s (which are excellent, great handling and just as impressive ride quality)
 
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