M5 SMG Transmission

NVP · 23 Mar 2011 at 11:45

I have some questions about the gearbox in the M5 that I was hoping the might of OcUK Motors would be able to answer for me, I test drove one yesterday and found the SMG terribly jerky and sometimes unpredictable. It wasn’t the refined saloon driving experience I was expecting.

The salesman said the M5 “learns your driving technique” over 300 miles and adapts to the way you drive which is why it is temperamental at first but becomes “super-smooth” once you have owned the car for a while. I do believe I’d get used to the Auto after a few days of driving (as with any car) and it will become more docile to use, but I’m not sure how big of an improvement the “AI” could actually make. Has anyone who has owned an M5 noticed the gearbox to dramatically change? Does it refine or remain “clumsy”?

If it does learn your driving technique, what happens if you drive on the motorway nice and sedate all week but then want to have some fun on the weekends? Does it cater for a schizophrenic driving style?

Another thing the salesman said, when I asked about the gearbox, was it has the same DTC (I assume he meant DCT) as in the new M3, which I don’t believe as I thought the M5 only had a single clutch? The gear changes were quite quick so I don’t see a problem with the single clutch myself, it is an “old” car after all so I wasn’t expecting a modern dual clutch anyway.

I’m not too mechanically minded as most of you could probably tell so I have some questions on the use of the SMG. As it is not a complete Auto, is there a need to lift off the accelerator when manually shifting or is flat shifting perfectly fine? I assumed flat shifting was how it’s meant to be driven but it did feel jerky, it wasn’t as smooth as I was expecting. The salesman told me to lift up when shifting which did make it smoother but does slow you down quite a bit and didn’t quite feel right anyway. If you flat shift all the time, would this reduce the lifespan of the ‘box?

I did like the fact you can just leave it in Auto and then change to manual at whim, and I loved having the sequential gear lever as well as the paddle shifts, I think I preferred the sequential actually. It is such a nice car to drive, and feels big but nimble, although not as nibble as the Evo I tested last week but that is to be expected, much more powerful though and you get a nice sense of speed. The gear changes were just so sudden and clumsy feeling that they made me crave a manual as I could drive it so much better myself. If this had the manual box from the E93 I drove it would be a much nicer performance car to drive, although I guess you then lose the relaxing saloon car abilities.

It was better in “M” mode, the amount of grunt and ferocity you get out of the car increases ten-fold and the changes felt sharper yet slightly smoother. One thing I did love was how in “M” mode the car is much more tail happy, it’s like they’ve set the traction control to “slip a little for fun, but not too much fun or you’ll die!”, I think I scared the salesman with this. He wouldn’t let me turn off the traction control completely though.

Anyway, I do like the car but I have concerns about the gearbox. Are they all like this or did I just drive a dog? It was a BMW Used Approved and in very good condition with only ~30k on the clock, but it just didn’t feel like I expected an M5 to feel. I will be test driving another as soon as I can but I would just like to know if the gearbox gets better or remains unpredictable, jumpy & clumsy.

Matt82 · 23 Mar 2011 at 12:33

im not a BMW experct but SMG and DCT are two very different generation of box, ie SMG being an electro/hydraulic actuated manual and DCT being a dual clutch thing (a la DSG, PDK etc)

ive been in a few SMG (1 and 2 in M3s) cars and was actually quite impressed with their level of inteligence. it responded to driver throttle inputs well enough, did the occasionally badly timed changed and when set to the relevant setting changed gears as if you wanted to rear diff ripped off.

Fr0dders · 23 Mar 2011 at 12:37

correct

the SMG in the E60 M5 is a robotized manual with a single clutch

the DCT is the E92 M3 is a dual clutch affair, completely different.

And many people comment that the lack of any smooth gear changes on the SMG transmissions is one of its best features. Because it gives you a nice punch in the back when you change gears to make it really feel like you're changing gears.

OllyM · 23 Mar 2011 at 12:39

The auto mode is terrible, I used it for 5 minutes and then have never used it again.

In manual mode it's not too bad, you do have to get used to it though - lifting off when changing at slow speeds etc. At higher engine speeds the shifts get quicker and you can get away without lifting off.

NVP · 23 Mar 2011 at 12:57

Yeah that's what I thought, I knew the BMW guy was lying too me (or perhaps he simply got confused).

The auto mode wasn't the nicest experience although it did make sense in rush hour traffic with the many round-a-bouts MK has, but as soon as there was a bit of freedom it started to panic. Manual did seem nicer and I agree the higher speeds felt much nicer but lifting off at lower speeds didn't feel as natural as you would expect, I think due to not have a clutch to press.

How long have you had your M5 OllyM? Have you noticed it get better as you've driven it for longer? I'm intrigued as to how effective this ability to learn your driving technique is.

EDIT: Any advice as to if flat shifting reduces the life of the clutch? I assume it shouldn't but as lifting makes it smoother does that mean not lifting puts more strain on the 'box?

Peerzy · 23 Mar 2011 at 12:58

They only got the new e60 M5 less than a week ago didn't they? Before they had an e39 M5.

NVP · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:02

Oh, was that yours at the RR this weekend? Very nice

OllyM · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:11

NVP said:
Yeah that's what I thought, I knew the BMW guy was lying too me (or perhaps he simply got confused).

The BMW sales people never have a clue so ignore most of what they say!

The auto mode wasn't the nicest experience although it did make sense in rush hour traffic with the many round-a-bouts MK has, but as soon as there was a bit of freedom it started to panic. Manual did seem nicer and I agree the higher speeds felt much nicer but lifting off at lower speeds didn't feel as natural as you would expect, I think due to not have a clutch to press.

You get used to it after a few days, and it becomes almost second nature.

How long have you had your M5 OllyM? Have you noticed it get better as you've driven it for longer? I'm intrigued as to how effective this ability to learn your driving technique is.

Since last Friday, the learning thing is the salesman talking rubbish I think

EDIT: Any advice as to if flat shifting reduces the life of the clutch? I assume it shouldn't but as lifting makes it smoother does that mean not lifting puts more strain on the 'box?

The faster the shift the more load the clutch is put under, I guess it must wear it more? I usually drive around with it in S3 which is quick enough day to day, and have it set to S5 in M mode for maximum attack.

[TW]Fox · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:11

Quite a jump from a 325Ci to an M5.

I take it you've done your homework about the costs of running such a beast?

NVP · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:43

OllyM said:
Since last Friday, the learning thing is the salesman talking rubbish I think

Oh really? That's a shame, if that is how the car is everyday I think I would get so fed up I'd have to sell it on. I suppose I could have been driving a below par example, or maybe I was just driving it completely wrong.

OllyM said:
The faster the shift the more load the clutch is put under, I guess it must wear it more? I usually drive around with it in S3 which is quick enough day to day, and have it set to S5 in M mode for maximum attack.

I must admit, "maximum attack" was such a nice feeling. The car just wouldn't stop pulling

I suppose any problems caused would be covered by warranty anyway but my assumption was that it was built to handle the "abuse".

[TW]Fox;18732525 said:
Quite a jump from a 325Ci to an M5.

I take it you've done your homework about the costs of running such a beast?

Not really, but I'm assuming it's not Italian supercar territory. I'm kind of at a point in my life where I'm still young with not many out goings and am earning gazillions so I thought "why not?". I enjoy driving so why not waste my money on that whilst I have the freedom to enjoy it. But even with an overestimated outgoing cost of 10k a year on servicing, petrol, insurance and such I can still keep saving a very nice amount for another house deposit so I thought I might as well while I'm still young.

The 325Ci has been a nice short love affair, but it bores me now. I need something more thrilling but I wasn't sure what, I test drove a small but varied amount of cars (911s, Nobles, BMWs, Evos) and the only thing that seems to have got me (almost) completely sold is the M5... apart from this gearbox

TomO · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:45

Never used the auto mode on mine. You get used to changing (lifting throttle when necessary) quite quickly and often its not really needed.

'M' button does what ever you programme it to do - don't assume it gives you full power /traction off as it depends what they have done to it at the dealership etc.

[TW]Fox · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:47

It's not far off some Italian stuff to be honest.

NVP · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:49

TomO said:
'M' button does what ever you programme it to do - don't assume it gives you full power /traction off as it depends what they have done to it at the dealership etc.

Oh really? So you can fully customise the M? I noticed when I pressed M an MDM light lit up as well as the M light. Do you know what this is?

[TW]Fox;18732801 said:
It's not far off some Italian stuff to be honest.

But it's more reliable so should have less outgoings than the exotic stuff. I was looking at Porsches previously but the Turbos seemed to involve a very high maintenance cost if something was wrong and I assumed Italian supercars were similar. Plus the initial purchase price is significantly higher.

OllyM · 23 Mar 2011 at 13:54

MDM = M Dynamic Mode, which means the DSC will allow the car to go more out of shape than it would normally. Personally I wouldn't drive with anything but the DSC fully on while on public roads.

And yes, you can configure the M button to do whatever you want in the iDrive.

Django x2 · 23 Mar 2011 at 14:00

Always reset the gearbox when you pick up an AUC (or any used car) or on any test drive. Then, it will relearn your driving style.

push start without foot on brake to turn on ignition. Press and hold accelerator pedal down, past the click, for 30+ seconds.

Done!

Re M5, I thought you could select your shift speed?

In other news, if I see one more review about how bad the electro power steering is in the F10, I'll be sticking with the E60!!

NVP · 23 Mar 2011 at 14:02

I initially didn't realise the M mode altered the traction control, but I did like the tail happiness of it. It was enjoyable yet controllable up to a point and still felt safe.

Do you not use Auto at all any more? What about on the motorways? In the higher gears it didn't feel too bad but did appear to shift earlier than expected so didn't have as much grunt as needed at times.

EDIT: Lucero, thanks for that, I will make sure I reset on the next test drive. So some BMWs do learn the drivers technique then? Does yours feel noticeably better now than after you first got it?

[TW]Fox · 23 Mar 2011 at 14:19

Since when is the V10 M5 more reliable than a 911?

Tax Evader · 23 Mar 2011 at 14:19

If there's any learning - and I was never really convinced having owned SMG (in E46) for about 8 years - it'll be for the auto mode, but as I say I'm not convinced. The shift points are determined by the drivelogic setting (1-6). In sequential mode what could it possibly learn?

Fr0dders · 23 Mar 2011 at 14:21

NVP said:
But it's more reliable so should have less outgoings than the exotic stuff. I was looking at Porsches previously but the Turbos seemed to involve a very high maintenance cost if something was wrong and I assumed Italian supercars were similar. Plus the initial purchase price is significantly higher.

The V10 and the SMG in the M5 is pretty complex. I wouldn't be wanting any random independent servicing it. Equally you're going to NEED a good bmw warranty on a car like this because they are so complex. If your SMG goes wrong the bill can run into the thousands

The BMW warranty itself - is about £2k a year i believe.

Tyres, will be £1200 a set (not exactly uncommon but worth bearing in mind)

Basic oil service is about £400 with an expensive service being upwards of £800. BMW Press office quoted £3000 for a 5 year fixed servicing plan and 60k miles. So thats an average of £600 a year and thats with a bulk discount for buying a fixed price maintenance pack.

TomO reckoned to average on 10mpg around town, 15mph as a general average, and 10/15mpg on Super Unleaded is going to hurt with prices as they are.

Brake discs ? about £500 plus fitting for the front only.
Brake pads ? about £200 plus fitting for the front only

And you've got the top rate tax band for vehicles as well which is £400 and odd (whatever it is now)

Some italian stuff would be about the same price to run i think !

OllyM · 23 Mar 2011 at 14:21

Tax Evader said:
If there's any learning - and I was never really convinced having owned SMG (in E46) for about 8 years - it'll be for the auto mode, but as I say I'm not convinced. The shift points are determined by the drivelogic setting (1-6). In sequential mode what could it possibly learn?

Exactly, I don't think there is anything for it to learn :confused: