Macintosh laptop vs others, why mac?

JonJ678 · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:00

The OP was vague I agree. I am curious as to why mac has attracted such a strong following when the hardware looks to be rather similar to windows, and thought it would be something beyond the software. Beyond that I fear some of you may have taken my post the wrong way, starting roughly from k1llswitch.

K1LLSW1TCH said:
It's how the OS uses the resources, not how fast the hardware is that counts.

Thanks for the sentiment, but I was hoping to keep OS out of this.

PardonTheWait said:
He'll know more than you about fixing Macs, and that's his job.

He may well know much less about Windows than you, but I'm sure you can forgive him that.

I didn't realise one booked time for this. I know bugger all about windows, osx or linux. I'm far more interested in the electronics than in the software. The idea behind speaking to one of their technicians was to learn what makes a mac different from a pc in terms of hardware. As an example, the dc socket on the backs of laptops becomes loose and/or breaks off frequently, does this happen with macbooks? Is the cooling system different, are the screen/inverter assemblies different? I repair laptops part time, so have a pretty good idea what goes wrong there. However I rarely see macs (aside from ancient G4s which seem to be dropping like flies), so I know little about them.

NickK said:
Very hard to work out what you're asking here.

Too true, I apologise for this. The question was vague. I can rephrase as "how does the hardware of a Macintosh laptop vary from its competitors?" but thought this would be too specific a question.

PardonTheWait said:
Sorry, had to add this... you're accusing the genius team of arrogance while you talk like that?

Leonardo da Vinci was a genius. Nikola Tesla was another. However spectacularly trained these guys are, they are surely misnamed. I am not accusing the team of it, I am accusing whoever thought this a fitting description.

I do not have any interest in picking a fight with these guys. The point was that if the hardware is fundementally the same, despite my hoping for a significant improvement over the alternative, I would be disappointed and persist in trying to find out how the hardware differed. This would clearly end with both myself and the unfortunate I was speaking to frustrated, and generally be a waste of time for us both.

Caged said:
Oh I missed the bit about booking time with a store worker so you can make yourself feel smug. Enjoy your Linux I guess, keep that stereotype alive!

Similarly to the above, but cheers for joining in the abuse. OSX is a customised version of unix designed to be of the most use to the most people. I'd rather start from a less customised version in order to gradually learn how to set it up as I wish, that is my choice. Again, I am not interested in osx vs windows vs linux, there's quite enough written on that topic already.

edit: special credit to everyone who read

just how arrogant the title is

and didn't bother to finish the sentence. I will be pleased if they know the inside of a mac inside and out, but this falls rather short of genius. If instead they are capable of diagnosis but send hardware elsewhere for repair, I would be disappointed.

Spyhop · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:01

The silly "Genius" thing is a red rag to would be staff belittlers!

The word genius has already been sullied by 99% of young people in the UK thinking (and using) it as an adjective, so let it go

NickK · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:14

The hardware is basically the same, it's just the design and the additional touches.

For example the ambient light sensor that changes the brightness on the fly or the self illuminating keyboard or multi-touch.
One the software side, Windows 7 and OSX have many of the same features but from my perspective I can see that they've not really change features to work with the user. OSX seems to handle this better.

geekyEd · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:20

JonJ678 said:
I will be pleased if they know the inside of a mac inside and out, but this falls rather short of genius. If instead they are capable of diagnosis but send hardware elsewhere for repair, I would be disappointed.

Of course they don't fix the products themselves they are the front line customer service guys. Its not as if its one store with three staff making selling and fixing laptop's. Its a huge operation requiring people that can sell, people that can diagnose and help with things that can be done without opening of hardware (the genius) and to be honest in most stores you don't even get that. Followed by the people sat in warehouses fixing components, well replacing parts really as I wouldn't have thought they break out the soldering irons.

Mattus · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:23

Of course Genius is just a marketing term. It's all part of the aura which Apple likes to build up around its products, along with sleek laptops with glossy screens and illuminated keyboards. If that kind of marketing repulses you, I reckon you're probably never going to love Macs.

MikeHunt79 · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:26

JonJ678 said:
As an example, the dc socket on the backs of laptops becomes loose and/or breaks off frequently, does this happen with macbooks? Is the cooling system different, are the screen/inverter assemblies different? I repair laptops part time, so have a pretty good idea what goes wrong there. However I rarely see macs (aside from ancient G4s which seem to be dropping like flies), so I know little about them.

Newer macbooks have whats called a magsafe connector, which attaches using a magnet. This means if the cable gets tripped over, it won't damage the connector on the laptop.

Newer macbooks also use LED backlights meaning no high voltage inverter to go wrong, they are pretty well made laptops IMO, if you disregard the whole software thing.

I'm not a "genius", but I also like to know what goes on inside, so fire away if you've got anymore questions.

K1LLSW1TCH · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:27

To be honest if all you care to know about is build quality and hardware components then just go into an Apple store or reseller and use one. The hardware is the same as you'd find in most laptops, Core 2 Duos, Geforce or Intel GMA graphics, RAM and HDD's are all changeable, it's standard Windows based laptop hardware on the whole. The only reason you'd stump up the cash for an Apple is because of the brilliant operating system, the fact the machines come with a great build quality too is just a bonus. I don't really know what you want to hear, but the build quality between a MacBook Pro and a £950 Vaio probably isn't that much. By the way 'Genius' is just another word for technician. They don't see themselves as some oracle of all computing knowledge, it's just a job, and having the tag of 'Genius' is just a gimmicky word that Apple use to seperate themselves from the mainstream boring "tech" stereotype. To go in there with the aim of showing up or challenging them is quite frankly, ridiculous.

PardonTheWait · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:54

BluZiff said:
Of course they don't fix the products themselves they are the front line customer service guys. Its not as if its one store with three staff making selling and fixing laptop's. Its a huge operation requiring people that can sell, people that can diagnose and help with things that can be done without opening of hardware (the genius) and to be honest in most stores you don't even get that. Followed by the people sat in warehouses fixing components, well replacing parts really as I wouldn't have thought they break out the soldering irons.

They do fix them in store. The geniuses diagnose it and fix it themselves. The only thing they don't open up is iPods, they didn't used to open iPhones but do open them up and fix some hardware faults instore as well now.

Every single Apple Store does their own repairs in house.

geekyEd · 12 Sep 2009 at 23:58

PardonTheWait said:
They do fix them in store. The geniuses diagnose it and fix it themselves. The only thing they don't open up is iPods, they didn't used to open iPhones but do open them up and fix some hardware faults instore as well now.

Every single Apple Store does their own repairs in house.

They will sit there and dismantle a laptop in the middle of the store?

Never noticed the few times I've popped into a store

Im impressed!

JonJ678 · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:00

Thank you to those above who offered some detail. K1LLSWITCH, you are yet to make a useful contribution to this thread or show evidence of reading my posts. Genius is far from synonymous with technician.

I'm saddened to hear that they do no repair work on site, but I suppose I'm not surprised.

A sensor that changes screen brightness with ambient is an excellent idea, and certainly along the lines of what I was hoping to be told. Power cable coming apart when kicked also sounds good. LED backlighting is certainly good in terms of reliability, and I believe has the side effect of more uniform illumination.

Thank you Mike, I can think of a few

I've noticed that some of them are aluminium, is the chassis thermally linked to the cpu/gpu cooler? This would mean fewer vents/slower fans and so less dust inside.

Do they disassemble in similar fashion to other laptops? The 'unibody' phrase in particular leads me to suspect the chassis to be unusual.

Is there any suspension between board and chassis? The thinkpads seem to have various parts softmounted to cope better with being dropped.

How much of the hardware is designed in house? I believe I read somewhere that the motherboards are manufactured by Asus, and they all appear to be using intel processors. Does it follow that Apple is responsible for component selection and chassis design, but otherwise they have little involvement?

That's all that comes to mind. I'll be grateful if any of the above can be answered. I don't personally care what the outside of the mac looks like, but if the design is more intelligent than the alternatives than I would also consider it beautiful.

Cheers

edit: @PardonTheWait, that's very good to hear. Thank you. I assume you can't say whether soldering irons are involved or not?

PardonTheWait · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:01

Of course they don't do it in the middle of the store, they do it in a room designed for that purpose! They keep loads of parts in stock, if they don't have it they get it ordered in. It's all in house, if you take it to a store it gets repaired instore. Only way it won't get repaired instore is if they replace it instead.

PardonTheWait · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:07

Individual parts come from various different manufacturers. As far as I know they *design* is done in house down to pretty small details. Can't tell you any further than that because I just don't know. I think the logic boards are designed in house but in all honesty, I'm not sure whether they're in house or in conjunction with the manufacturers.

And as far as Apple goes, Genius = technician. They'll advise, diagnose, and repair, they do everything. It's just Apple's word for it.

As for soldering, I don't remember seeing them ever do it. It's just easier, quicker and more reliable to replace the part.

PardonTheWait · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:10

Interesting fact: the official tools of Apple Geniuses include guitar plectrums and putty knives.

It's true.

JonJ678 · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:13

Thank you. Sounds like quite a lucrative career.

Easier, quicker and more reliable but not always cheaper. If anything I think it's a good thing that they take this approach. Will they refuse to work on a laptop running ram and a hard drive it didn't come with, and how does warranty work with a laptop which has been opened by a non-apple person?

Cheers

PardonTheWait · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:16

It's not really about cheap, it's about proper service. You pay good money for Apple stuff, I personally wouldn't want someone going at it with a soldering iron when the problem is solved easier by swapping out a part. Quick and reliable is the service they try to (and do) offer. In all seriousness the Genius Bar is fantastic. Stuff gets done with a minimum of hassle.

They'll work on a laptop with third party bits (if you haven't broken the warranty by changing them), but if they decide or suspect that those are the parts that are at fault, they'll either tell you that, or ask you to refit the originals and bring it back. For example if you brought in your macbook and it was displaying obvious symptoms of bad ram, once they notice you've changed it they'll say they can't help with it. If you stick the ram back in and it's still doing it, obviously it's something else and they'll fix that. If you changed your ram and your hard drive failed then obviously they'd just fix the hard drive.

Depends what you mean by opened. You can freely change the ram and hard drive on some models. If you open up a bit you're not meant to they can refuse to work on it as you've voided the warranty. They'll still advise you if you've voided your warranty or it's run out, and software problems they'll help with regardless of warranty. It's only hardware stuff that needs to be covered by warranty or paid for.

MikeHunt79 · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:20

I'll do my best...

JonJ678 said:
I've noticed that some of them are aluminium, is the chassis thermally linked to the cpu/gpu cooler? This would mean fewer vents/slower fans and so less dust inside.

I'd actually like to know this too, I'd assume they'd use the Alu case as a heatsink, it seems silly not to! Some simple heatpipes would work well here.

JonJ678 said:
Do they disassemble in similar fashion to other laptops? The 'unibody' phrase in particular leads me to suspect the chassis to be unusual.

I've had the older pre-unibody macbook pro apart, it's pretty similar to a normal laptop in terms of disassembly, most of it can be done with the proper screwdrivers or a credit card for the tabs...

JonJ678 said:
Is there any suspension between board and chassis? The thinkpads seem to have various parts softmounted to cope better with being dropped.

I'd imagine if the chassis was being used a heatsink, then there would be no suspension for the mainboard, but I think the hardrives may have some form of soft mounting, I'd expect the DVD drive to have some form of suspension also...

JonJ678 said:
How much of the hardware is designed in house? I believe I read somewhere that the motherboards are manufactured by Asus, and they all appear to be using intel processors. Does it follow that Apple is responsible for component selection and chassis design, but otherwise they have little involvement?

A lot of it is PC parts with custom firmware eg the wifi module is exactly the same as the midi PCI-e cards on some dell laptops, apart from the little apple text screenprinted onto the shielding. I've also heard the apple use the same OEM as Acer for many of the parts...

Macbooks do have some unique parts tho, the logic board is exclusive to macs, and if you need a replacement, they can be very costly if not covered by warranty!

JonJ678 · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:24

That sounds completely reasonable, though I would be well advised to carefully read the terms of the warranty as well as not sell on the original hard drive. I suppose I meant changing ram/hard drive by 'opened', if the desire to strip it apart to look at the pieces is too great I'll accept the loss of warranty

This sounds like the ideal aftersales system, especially since there's a store just about everywhere.

I confess my ignorance on this one, what does a 'logic board' do? Chassis as a heatsink and suspending the board would be a challenge, that's a good point. Of course its a bit of a moot point if the user doesn't drop the laptop, but I'd be likely to be cycling with it and I crash remarkably often.

Thank you both,

p.s. Would taking a hard drive into the store and asking them to fit it void the warranty, were it otherwise precluded? I agree that good aftersales support is certainly worth a premium.

PardonTheWait · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:26

They're very good at what they do. They'll sell you it, teach you how to work it for silly cheap, fix it, they just look after you. If you want to see where your 'Apple Tax' goes, part of it goes there and it's worth it tbh.

Barks · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:33

Trust me, Macs are no better. They're more efficient and look ace but at the end of the day they cause just as much frustration, if not more, than Windows. I'm already starting to think getting a MBP and not a Windows laptop was a mistake.

JonJ678 · 13 Sep 2009 at 00:36

Reply is in the last edit Pardon, silly formatting on my part. Basically I agree that this is worth the charge, probably worth it by itself really.

I fear there may be some hate coming your way Scott. Is your objection with the operating system or with the hardware? If the latter, I'd be interested to hear what the problems were