Matched betting - who's done it and who's good at it? (No Referrals)

Thanks. When you say first race, do you mean first race of any given event? So is this offer available multiple times daily? Sorry for ignorance. I do understand matched betting, I made a decent amount through sign ups its just an ongoing offers that are profitable but not majorly time consuming.

Only looking to make even circa £10 a day, but can't seem to find how to do this without putting hours yet others make it sound easy!

Skybet one is a Cheltenham special. The first race of each day (1.30pm). If you want to make some easy money from this you can do this.

Back a horse with 20 at Sky Bet.
Go to an exchange (betfair, Smarkets) and lay the bet for about 17 if you get odds of about 5 (use a SNR calculator like they have on Yesbets or Profit accumulator).

If the horse wins you win at Sky bet but lose at the exchange - you make 17 profit from difference between your back and lay
If your horse loses you get your 20 back at Sky (net effect zero) and you get 17 profit from the exchange.
 
I had trouble signing up for skybet as they said I already have an account with one of their 7 partners ??? only thing I can think it was fantasy football but thought id leave it for a week or two before contacting them to sort but then saw the Cheltenham offer and was kicking myself for not getting my account sorted

still learning :rolleyes:
 
Skybet one is a Cheltenham special. The first race of each day (1.30pm). If you want to make some easy money from this you can do this.

Back a horse with 20 at Sky Bet.
Go to an exchange (betfair, Smarkets) and lay the bet for about 17 if you get odds of about 5 (use a SNR calculator like they have on Yesbets or Profit accumulator).

If the horse wins you win at Sky bet but lose at the exchange - you make 17 profit from difference between your back and lay
If your horse loses you get your 20 back at Sky (net effect zero) and you get 17 profit from the exchange.

Thanks! Understood, will give this a go later.

Would you mind explaining the each way bets? As from what I read these are the way to go if looking for daily easy bets?
 
Do you mind me asking which offers you are using at these? And are they daily/regular?

Just the money back and free bet ones

I am going positive value rather than matching them

this carries a bit of a risk but on average returns will be a little higher and its a lot more fun

this method is not for you if you have a more limited bankroll or are bothered about losing a bit
 
Each way extra places - I would say this is not a 101 course for Matched betting.

An each way bet is a bet that a horse will be placed in a certain race. You bet on it to win for 10 on the win odds and then put another 10 on that it will place for 1/4 or 1/5 the win odds. The number of places that pay out as each way depends on the number of runners. If your horse wins you win both bets. (Win and Each way) if it comes 2,3,4 (or 5) then your each way bet wins but your win bet doesn’t.

Where there is an opportunity to profit is where the bookies offer extra places. So if the norm is to pay out on 4 places they pay out of 5,6 or even 7. What you do is place an each way bet as normal. Lay the bet as normal. The exchange will only pay out (i.e. you lose) when the horse comes in the 4 normal places. Where the profit comes in is if your horse comes in in one of the extra places. In that case your back bet wins, and your lay bet doesn’t lose. So you get your winnings from the back bet but you also do not lose the same amount of money in your lay bet as you would do if the horse had finished 2,3 or 4.

As you can see you will only profit if your horse comes in the extra places. Getting good matches on each way odds between bookie and exchange on the higher odds needed to make this profit is a challenge.

If you double this up with either a free bet on a winning horse (Bet365 and Betfair) or best odds guaranteed (William Hill etc) then you can make money on it. It needs bigger betting and longer odds to make consistent returns though
 
Thanks guys, and particularly Royal Fleet for your explanation. The each way perhaps sounds a bit over my head! Think I’ll just stick to normal free bets if there is enough of them about and the acca insurance bets.


Thanks!
 
Best plan with MB is to use the sign ups and repeating free bet offers (paddy power etc) to build up a bank of both funds and knowledge which means you can then move onto the more advanced stuff.

My profits now come from the repeat free bets (PP, Sky, 365) and the more complex ones to profit from like the William Hill Golden goal, 2up, ITV racing and extra places.
 
without trawling through the thread is there a 'mugs guide' to getting started. i have a modest bank roll of 100 quid a month that i won't lose sleep over if i balls it up and lose it all on the 14:30 race at chepstow. i used to use it play about with bit and alt coins but that's gotten boring of late for me so gonna have a look see at this MB malarkey.
 
Picked a 6th place on the 17:30 so sky bet extra places helped there.

Overall did ok. Just a shame the £20-25 bets of old are now only £10
 
So just to update. I'm about 100 in profit up to now having followed Profit Accumulator. Even happy to pay for a month while I rinse the offers.

Only spent a couple of hours doing it, got the hang of it now. It is guaranteed profit. Why not!
 
We need to nail down this EV issue as this is where we are disagreeing. I am not sure why you both maintain it is a factor in a matched bet. You are laying two bets. One that some thing will happen and one that it won’t. By definition one of these will occur on every bet. Arsenal win or they don’t. Aguero scores first or he doesn’t. You have covered both sides of this outcome. You are in effect acting as punter and bookie in the same event. You will win on one side of the equation every time. As long as you stake accordingly to balance that equation out the net effect is zero. (Not withstanding the qualifying loss).

Well the point of the discussion was about value namely that not hedging/laying technically does present greater value but exposes you to plenty of variance, so rather hard to ignore EV. The EV is still there for the bets made at the bookies whether you lay or not, it doesn't suddenly cease to exist just because you've made other bets. You can still look at those bets at the bookie in isolation, if you do lay then you've essentially locked in the EV on both sides and realised it as your QL which you keep referring to. If for some reason you actually have a positive EV on one of the legs and it exceeds the negative EV on the other leg then you'll have an arb... you'll directly make a profit from that combination of bets. Generally this happens as a result of the bookie offering you value - note there is an overround still at the bookie in these scenarios, the bookie still makes his vig, it is just that his odds for the various outcomes are badly priced relative to everyone else and selecting a particular bet gives you value - this is why your QL vs overround comparison is flawed in scenarios with a low QL as what you're actually inadvertently doing there is selecting good bets or at least less bad bets from the bookie (I'm out of date on matched betting, did it years ago, but if you inadvertently end up taking value bets from a bookie, especially if you end up arbing, then that is a quick way to get your account looked at and suspended).

I've made a massive post here to demonstrate/breakdown the above so I've stuck the rest in spoiler tags as while this discussion is pertinent to the thread I'm guessing it is probably of interest to very few of us.

You've presented a betfair scenario which I worked through, albeit there was an incorrect betfair price. I think the main thing you're stuck on is that you keep on comparing the QL with the overround and assuming that is the expected loss which can be quite a flawed assumption at times - more details on this below.

Take a look again at the coin flip example - I had chosen the same odds (1.8) at the bookie for heads and tails to keep it simpler.

If you look back at the post you'll find the overround was 111.1% (or 11.1% depending on convention used) and the vig was exactly 10% (overround-1/overround)

I directly calculated the EV (as the probability is known for a coin flip) - for a £10 bet this was -£1 (and in this case would have been estimated exactly by the vig)

This was (£8 * 0.5) + (-£10 * 0.5) = -£1

I skimped on the details in that post for the sake of space but the amount layed at 2.05 would have been £8.78

As you can see the EV of the lay at the exchange is negative too:

(£8.78 * 0.5) + (-£9.22 * 0.5) = -£0.22

The QL was £1.22, as should be obvious this loss is a combination of the EV of the bet at the bookie (-£1) and the EV of the lay at the exchange -£.22.

That is all the QL is, it is the expected value of both bets combined and realised as a guaranteed loss. Now unless you're getting +ev or 0ev bets at the exchange then your expected value is obviously higher if you don't lay.

I'd hope we both agree that it is obvious from that example that someone not laying there has more value over a series of events in the long run - he expects to lose on average £1 per event (albeit with lots of variance) vs someone with no variance guaranteeing a loss of £1.22 for each event.

Now you've made an assertion about scenarios where the QL is rather low - I'll agree that that can be true (and indeed the QL can vanish or even reverse - in the case of an arb) however that is generally where you're getting value from a bookie - both the person laying and the person just betting at the bookie benefit from that same scenario!

Consider again the coin example, it might be more informative for you to play around with it yourself - but I'll assert this - if you adjust the bookie odds favouring one of heads or tails while maintaining the same vig you'll find that you can get the same situation - you'll end up with a QL (if you take the favourable bet) lower than the vig. The flaw in the comparison you're using if you're applying it to these scenarios is then highlighted as the expected value of the favourable bet is low and the vig is no longer a reasonable approximation of it.

We can demonstrate this clearly with the coin flip example:

Lets say the our bookie Paddy lives in an area where most people prefer betting on tails, he's an old school bookie and in order to balance his book and maintain his 10% vig he adjusts his odds a bit more favourably for heads.

So Paddy now has odds of:

Heads: 1.9
Tails: 1.7

(overround here is approximately 111% and vig of approximately 10%)

The betfair price is as before, centred around the true odds, 1.95 : 2.05

So for a bet of £10 on Heads we now want to lay £9.73 at the exchange

Our EV of the bet at the bookie is (£9 * 0.5) + (-£10 * 0.5) = -£0.5

Our EV from laying at the exchange is (£9.27 * 0.5) +(-£9.73 * 0.5) = -£0.23

As you can see again the QL is equal to the sum of the EV from both legs and is -£0.73

This is where the flaw comes in - if you were to compare the QL in that instance to the vig of 10%, you'd be assuming the expected value at the bookie was still -£1, in fact it is -£0.5 in that scenario, half what you're assuming it to be, and less than the QL.
If you're cherry picking low QL bets then you're in effect selecting bets at the bookie that are giving you better value than the vig would suggest ergo it is rather flawed to then cite it and make the comparison between them.

This then brings us back to the point I was making at the beginning - you don't even need to know or need to attempt to estimate that at all in order to make the point about laying as the expected value of the bets at the bookies is the same in either scenario (as it is the same series of bets!). Your EV on that side is the same and thanks to the free bets that is where your money is coming from. The simple point is just that laying has a cost associated with it, if you chose to lay then you're adding that cost on top of the gains from the bookie in return for getting rid of variance, it doesn't magically affect the EV of the bets at the bookies, that aspect is unchanged, all you're doing is adding a cost in return for removing variance.

(just to note I'm not advocating never laying per say but just trying to get across the point about which gives more value)

Where the confusion may arise is that exchanges display the lay odds actually as back odds. In reality you are accepting someone else backing the event at those odds to you as the bookie.

If you're playing the bookie at the exchange then you're working limit orders and someone else is crossing the spread - ergo your aiming to make +ev lays at betfair (an activity that makes money from the exchange in itself). Generally in matched betting you cross the spread and or pay some commission (if applicable) which makes your activity have -ev.

If you can get perfect matches (which is possible) and laid a whole series of such bets you would retain 100% of your stakes. All that would happen is that in some cases your back bet would win and in some cases your lay bet. The net effect is zero.

Consider roulette. If you back black and red equally you will lose money over time as there is a green space on the wheel. If you could back black and not black you would not lose money.

PS - 3 days in and 500 up - some cheeky extra places helped me out.

As per the coin toss example the same can be illustrated with roulette - you could consider some theoretical free bet roulette offers over 1000 spins where one person bets on red each spin and another person also bets on red each spin but also hedges by betting on black and placing a smaller bet on zero too.

You'll find again that the QL is equal to the EV of all the bets combined. Again illustrating that you're locking in a QL that is larger than the EV of the person just betting on red and not laying.

The only way this is not true is if you've got no cost at all from laying or indeed if your lays have a positive expected value... if they had a positive expected value then you have no need for matched betting and have found a system to make money from betfair.

Second point - I'm certainly not advocating it is a necessarily good idea for most, you could easily have some rather nasty swings if you never layed. It is just worth highlighting the principles here - in particular what the costs are and where the money is coming from as well as pointing out that there is nothing wrong with having fun with some offers by not laying on occasion as thanks to the free bets they're still +ev (and in fact technically gives you more value in the long run). Where the cost of laying is negligible - minimal spread and no or low commission then it is probably a no brainer for the majority of people to just lay (unless they want to sometimes gamble it up for fun and understand the risks, have the bank balance etc..etc..).
 
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In your example I think your maths is a little off and the last part highlights the flaw in your assertion.

So for a bet of £10 on Heads we now want to lay £9.73 at the exchange

Heads - Our EV of the bet at the bookie is (£9 * 0.5) + (-£9.73 * 0.5) = -£0.36 - Your loss at the exchange is actually 9.73 - your lay liability

Tails - Our EV from laying at the exchange is (£9.27 * 0.5) +(-£10 * 0.5) = -£0.36 - The £10 is your lost stake. Not sure why you put the lay bet into the back bet side of the equation.

As you can see again the QL is equal to the sum of the EV from both legs and is -£0.73
This last sentence is the main point where your argument fails. Why are you adding together the two EV? You have backed two sides of one outcome. It will be heads or tails. Only one of your combinations will occur. They are mutually exclusive but also the entirety of the outcome.

 
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In your example I think your maths is a little off and the last part highlights the flaw in your assertion.

No, I'll try and clarify, you've edited the figures in the quote which has introduced an error but I'll expand on what I wrote above in that bit

Paddy's odds
Heads: 1.9
Tails: 1.7

Betfair odds for heads 1.95 : 2.05

here is the section you quoted without editing:
dowie said:
So for a bet of £10 on Heads we now want to lay £9.73 at the exchange

Our EV of the bet at the bookie is (£9 * 0.5) + (-£10 * 0.5) = -£0.5

Our EV from laying at the exchange is (£9.27 * 0.5) +(-£9.73 * 0.5) = -£0.23

As you can see again the QL is equal to the sum of the EV from both legs and is -£0.73

We look first at the ev of the bet at the bookie - we're betting £10 at the bookie here, two possibilities for this bet - we win £9 or we lose £10, it is a coin flip so probability of each is 0.5 The EV here is -£0.5. If you were to only bet on heads for £10 at odds of 1.9 then you'll on average lose 50p per event in the long run.

(I'm not sure why you've edited the ev on both legs to be -£0.36 in your post?? Or what that -£0.36 is supposed to represent? That is definitely an error there is no reason to assume the ev of both legs has to be equal, especially given the odds above!)

Now the lay at the exchange, we have layed £9.27 at 2.05, note the odds at the exchange here are tighter than the bookie (that is quite usual) ergo the EV is going to be smaller. We either get back £9.27 or we have to pay out our liability of £9.73. The EV here is -£0.23. So if you were to only lay this bet then you’ll lose on average 23p per event in the long run.

Now what is the QL if we’re backing and laying? Does it come to the same amount as the EV combined?

Of course it does:

If heads win then we have won £9 from the bookie and lost £9.73 at the exchange, the loss is £0.73
If tails win the we have lost £10 at the bookie and have won £9.27 at the exchange, the loss is £0.73

This last sentence is the main point where your argument fails. Why are you adding together the two EV? You have backed two sides of one outcome. It will be heads or tails. Only one of your combinations will occur. They are mutually exclusive but also the entirety of the outcome.

Because that is what your loss or "QL" is! That is all you're doing when you cover both(all) options, you lock in the expected value of both bets, it is in a sense no longer just "expected" but has been realised as the QL. I've constructed this simple example involving a coin toss in order to demonstrate that point as you weren't getting the point about EV before. In this case it can be clearly demonstrated with known probabilities.

This, ought to, demonstrate the point I've been making all along that the EV of the bets at the bookie is unchanged, if you also make an additional -ev lay bet then you're just adding in a cost in order to remove variance. In the above case the person betting on heads at the bookie without laying will lose on average 50p per event (coin toss) but his profit and loss can bounce around all over the place, the person betting on heads at the bookie and laying at betfair has locked in a QL of £0.73, his loss is larger but locked in for each event.

It also demonstrates the flaw in your previous comparison where you were looking at a small QL value compared with a bookie's vig and assuming that the vig represented the ev on the bet at the bookie, you're only really getting a small QL if the bookie is giving you good (or less bad) prices, if the bookie is particularly slow then they might even end up offering you +ev prices in which case you'll perhaps have an arb.

(edited for further clarity - I hope this post resolves it :) )
 
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OK. I understand the maths you are portraying now and accept that in your example you are making the point that it is not worth laying the bet. However you are rather loading the dice by assuming that Paddy's customers are a bit thick and BetFair customer paid attention in Probability lessons. The overround is unrealistic in your instance as the probability of each outcome is actually known and equal. More realistic is that both outcomes would have odds of 1.9 to provide an overround. This is the case with other scenarios where the odds are testable and repeatable such as Roulette.

If you assume that everyone missed probability 101 and that the lay bet can be placed at 1.95 (a more realistic match of back to lay odds I would argue) then the argument does not hold. In that case your liability is 9.25 and stake is 9.74

Scenario 1 - unlaid bet
Unlaid bet EV - (£9 * 0.5) + (-£10 * 0.5) = -£0.5

Scenario 2 - laid bet
Laid bet backing heads and heads comes up - you win your back bet +9, lose the lay bet liability -9.25 - net loss 0.25
Laid bet backing heads and tails comes up - you lose your back bet -10 and win the lay bet stake +9.74 - net loss 0.26

You don't combine those scenarios. The expected outcomes of scenario 1 are included in scenario 2.

Which has been my point all along. If you can get a match of back to lay below the overround then there is more long term value in matching. If you cannot get good matches your higher long term reward is in gambling.
 
OK. I understand the maths you are portraying now and accept that in your example you are making the point that it is not worth laying the bet.

That isn't the point, the point is that laying has a cost associated with it, and also to illustrate how the QL is the EV of both bets combined. I'm not saying it isn't worth laying, laying has a purpose and that is to reduce variance. The point being argued is that you do get greater value in theory in the long run by not laying.

However you are rather loading the dice by assuming that Paddy's customers are a bit thick and BetFair customer paid attention in Probability lessons. The overround is unrealistic in your instance as the probability of each outcome is actually known and equal. More realistic is that both outcomes would have odds of 1.9 to provide an overround. This is the case with other scenarios where the odds are testable and repeatable such as Roulette.

The same can be shown with roulette, it is easier to demonstrate it with a coin flip. I think you're forgetting the previous example - I've provided two examples of the coin flip, the first one did indeed have the same odds for both heads and tails if you look back. There is an overround in both cases, the point here in this second example was to demonstrate why comparing the vig and the QL, in cases where the QL is lower, is potentially rather flawed. The reality is that the EV on the bookie leg is the same regardless, you get a lower QL when that particular bet at the bookie is priced rather more generously than the vig would suggest... if it is particularly generous then you get an arb even.

If you assume that everyone missed probability 101 and that the lay bet can be placed at 1.95 (a more realistic match of back to lay odds I would argue) then the argument does not hold. In that case your liability is 9.25 and stake is 9.74

Scenario 1 - unlaid bet
Unlaid bet EV - (£9 * 0.5) + (-£10 * 0.5) = -£0.5

Scenario 2 - laid bet
Laid bet backing heads and heads comes up - you win your back bet +9, lose the lay bet liability -9.25 - net loss 0.25
Laid bet backing heads and tails comes up - you lose your back bet -10 and win the lay bet stake +9.74 - net loss 0.26

You don't combine those scenarios. The expected outcomes of scenario 1 are included in scenario 2.

Which has been my point all along. If you can get a match of back to lay below the overround then there is more long term value in matching. If you cannot get good matches your higher long term reward is in gambling.

What you've done there is to make money from betfair, note you've omitted the EV calculation of the lay leg! if you can do that then you don't need matched betting in the first place!!!! I have made this point a few times and put it in bold at the end of the big post:

The only way this is not true is if you've got no cost at all from laying or indeed if your lays have a positive expected value... if they had a positive expected value then you have no need for matched betting and have found a system to make money from betfair.

That is exactly what you've done in the above example, you've assumed a lay leg where you're getting a positive EV.

Our EV of the bet at the bookie is as before (£9 * 0.5) + (-£10 * 0.5) = -£0.5

This time we lay £9.74 at the exchange at 1.95 for a liability of £9.25

Our EV from laying at the exchange is (£9.74 * 0.5) +(-£9.25 * 0.5) = +£0.245

You have a positive EV there from the exchange! If you were to just lay then you'd expect to make on average £0.245 per coin flip.

As I commented before, I'd happily lay 1.95 on a coin flip all day... forget matched betting you're just making money from betfair there.
 
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