Maybe An Opportunity For An Amateur Photographer?

[ElDude]

aahh that old chestnut.

'All our whining isn't stopping this new fangled technology so lets run to the government and make them pass laws to protect our outdated business model'

good luck with that

Nice. Really well thought out argument there.

I was merely making a valid point that people doing this can and do take work away from others. If people want to do it then go nuts. My point is valid, as with other trades you have to be registered professionals or it can harm trade and have a negative consequences on the person hiring (not always in ways relevant to this thread mind you). I'm not saying it will happen in this case, I'm purely making the point that for arguments sake the OP 'hires' someone that does a poor job but OP is honour bound to provide what he's offered. OP has to hire another person for the same offer, same thing happens. It's feasible that the OP could end up spending the cost of a pro on 5 poor photographers and getting a couple of average photos that give a poor impression of the business turning custom away.

It's obvious what the point is that is being made by myself and others here. Pay for a professional and you'll get what you pay for. Pay next to nothing repeatedly for poor images from Joe Public with their new toy and you could spend months getting nowhere.

If people can't see the point being made then they're either being deliberately obtuse, or arguing for the sake of it.

Also as for someone being a poor photographer because they have no work, that's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. There are millions unemployed, and I'm sure it's because they're all rubbish at their trade....

 

[rs1800]

There are many poor-average pros out there.(I'm not having a go, they are the minority) but "Pay for a professional and you'll get what you pay for" is not true at all.

most people would ask to see the pros work 1st to check out if their style, quality, prices etc match their expectations.

so why cant the op do that anyway?

 

[rs1800]

'All our whining isn't stopping this new fangled technology so lets run to the government and make them pass laws to protect our outdated business model'

good luck with that

Nice. Really well thought out argument there.

not so much thought out, just translated

 

[funkyphantom]

Well, its an interesting conversation. If nothing else!
One question I would like to ask is, When someone has a website built professionally for them does the price quoted include photographs? If so would they have a dedicated photographer to come and take the photos for them, or would they employ locally?

 

[Defconluke]

Using an amateur tog works both ways. That tog may get more future gigs if they add these shots to their portfolio and are judged to be of sufficient quality to someone hiring them in the future.

A successful business model for a tog includes building a good rep and a good portfolio. Without the good rep how to they get recommended to people? Without that portfolio what do they have to show potential future customers?

Flip the business side of things to the other side. The Golf Club has no guarantee of image quality they are going to receive - using a 'pro' would minimise the risk but that can be done other ways if they are using an 'amateur' such as by lowering the rate of pay or offering something in kind that reduces the cost to them but also has a value.

The Golf Club also has no idea what high quality images on a good website will mean to their business. Will in bring in 1%, 10% or 100% more business? If using an 'amateur' gets them 10% but a 'pro' gets them 11% more business would it be worth the higher initial outlay from the Golf Club? If the board see business pick up from an 'amateur's' images then they could be persuaded in the future to go for a 'pro' to try and get a similar advance in customer numbers. In this case, starting off with an 'amateur' actually helps a 'pro' get a gig further down the line.

Yes, a photographer can be a business but don't forget that the Golf Club is a business too. Both their goals should be the same - to maximise income and customer satisfaction while minimising costs. Criticising one party for wanting to make the most of their business but praising the other for trying to do the same thing is the very definition of being hypocritical.

Negotiations will take place, both partys will agree to terms they are happy with and a transaction will occur. Whether or not you agree with the terms means nothing if you aren't involoved.



Too many people in this thread seem blinkered to the value of their hobby/profession and are forgetting that, when it comes down to it, this is about business.

 

[AHarvey]

Also as for someone being a poor photographer because they have no work, that's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. There are millions unemployed, and I'm sure it's because they're all rubbish at their trade....

Right, lets see if we can spell it out for you. Photographers are mostly self employed and running their own business, and in this case you can pretty much guarantee it'll be a sole trader.

Would you agree that a business that has no work on their books is failing? I'll pretend you said yes because, well, you're not stupid.

Now, if a business is failing it's because of 2 things:

1) Their product can't be sold.
2) They are bad at business.

The product in this case is photos. If you can't sell your skills based on your photos then you must either be a bad photographer or bad at business. I don't understand what part of that you find confusing

You also can't compare the 2.5 million unemployed people out there a business owner who is failing as the majority will have been employee's not directly responsible for the running of the company that fired them.

It's obvious what the point is that is being made by myself and others here. Pay for a professional and you'll get what you pay for. Pay next to nothing repeatedly for poor images from Joe Public with their new toy and you could spend months getting nowhere.

If people can't see the point being made then they're either being deliberately obtuse, or arguing for the sake of it.

OR they don't agree with your point because for lack of a better phrase "It's wrong on so many levels!"

Firstly, you seem unable to accept that AMATEUR DOES NOT MEAN BEGINNER. 80% of the guys at my local camera club are amateurs but they've been taking photos for 20+ years and produce excellent shots.

Secondly, as a professional I could go and take images for free and they'll get professional edited images of a high standard. My wedding tog charged me £3k and produced average photos. high fees != quality.

I don't understand this attitude you few have about it. You've made your point, the OP responded so I don't think we're the ones that are arguing for the sake of arguing


As for spending so much money of 5 poor togs which could be cheaper than a pro, a simple contract (always have a contract) that says payment will only be made on acceptance of acceptable quality photos will protect them from such a thing. It'll also keep the "chancers" out.

Well, its an interesting conversation. If nothing else!
One question I would like to ask is, When someone has a website built professionally for them does the price quoted include photographs? If so would they have a dedicated photographer to come and take the photos for them, or would they employ locally?

really depends on the company. Some will ask you to get your own, others will just send someone out with a P&S and others will hire someone, either way you'll be paying for that service.

Weather is really bad at the moment which will make taking nicely lit warm shots a royal pita to get

 

[ElDude]

Right, lets see if we can spell it out for you. Photographers are mostly self employed and running their own business, and in this case you can pretty much guarantee it'll be a sole trader.

Would you agree that a business that has no work on their books is failing? I'll pretend you said yes because, well, you're not stupid.

Now, if a business is failing it's because of 2 things:

1) Their product can't be sold.
2) They are bad at business.

The product in this case is photos. If you can't sell your skills based on your photos then you must either be a bad photographer or bad at business. I don't understand what part of that you find confusing

You also can't compare the 2.5 million unemployed people out there a business owner who is failing as the majority will have been employee's not directly responsible for the running of the company that fired them.



OR they don't agree with your point because for lack of a better phrase "It's wrong on so many levels!"

Firstly, you seem unable to accept that AMATEUR DOES NOT MEAN BEGINNER. 80% of the guys at my local camera club are amateurs but they've been taking photos for 20+ years and produce excellent shots.

Secondly, as a professional I could go and take images for free and they'll get professional edited images of a high standard. My wedding tog charged me £3k and produced average photos. high fees != quality.

I don't understand this attitude you few have about it. You've made your point, the OP responded so I don't think we're the ones that are arguing for the sake of arguing


As for spending so much money of 5 poor togs which could be cheaper than a pro, a simple contract (always have a contract) that says payment will only be made on acceptance of acceptable quality photos will protect them from such a thing. It'll also keep the "chancers" out.



really depends on the company. Some will ask you to get your own, others will just send someone out with a P&S and others will hire someone, either way you'll be paying for that service.

Weather is really bad at the moment which will make taking nicely lit warm shots a royal pita to get

Look, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're not trying to deliberately cause an argument, but if you can't see that even good tradesmen can have no work at the moment, then I can't really convince you otherwise. Trust me, I get to see more of this unemployment side of things than you do (unless you actually happen to work in a jobcentre) and I see people that have been successfully self employed for decades, suddenly have nothing coming in. It's nothing to do with them being poor at their trade or business, it's the fact people are not willing to hire people for a myriad of reasons. People undercutting to get work is the main one, as some can afford to undercut, other's cannot. The ones that can't will often be the ones that go under.

Please don't tell me it's as simple as being good at your job, as that is nonsensical at best.

 

[londonbairn]

There are a lot of dubious pieces of work out there being charged a lot for, but I would say equally anyone who wants to get into being paid will have to do something like that to boost a portfolio, or shadow a wedding tog for pittance for example. In this case where revenue generation is pretty critical, I would say that they could be using a good local firm who are experts at landscapes given the impact great photos on a website showcasing nice greens, weddings etc will have.

One area which I find contensious for sure is sports photography, most of the work I see is no better than what I could take with my camera phone. I started taking pics for my g/f's running club only and they absolutely love the "bokeh" effect from the 70-200mm that the £15 pictures they pay for just don't have, to the extent that they want me to be an official tog at their club events to sell photos to participants.

Not that I am being pompous, but I have been to many events where the "official" tog is using a cheap DSLR kit, with inadequate equipment to get a very nice DOF you would want on an atheltics shot, and often have it set to auto. I was at one a couple of weeks ago and the results of their shots were pretty poor. They looked like they were all shot in auto at f/9 or something at a short focal length. It's probably one area that you really should have a fast lens with an appropriate focal length to get that nice finish, but with stills you can get away with it as you can focus stack etc..