McLaren Honda

drunkenmaster said:
They definitely didn't want to be outwardly poaching top guys from other teams after they entered because it only signifies they are failures and whoever it is from another team is coming in to fix it. But the guy was there from 2013.

The rumour being he left because he wasn't being listened to, however would he have stayed there since 2013 being ignored, not too likely. People who are being ignored now but weren't a couple of years ago makes me think he was more involved with the bad concept and now he's being marginalised as he was part of that team that failed.

As for Mclaren putting their foot down... there isn't much indication of that, a guy choosing to leave because the team doesn't listen to him doesn't really give any insight into what Mclaren are saying. Also Mclaren/Dennis are hugely responsible for the mess themselves, insisting on size zero(which they're moving away from for that flared air exit/under cut) which required a smaller engine and insisting it had to be 2015 to enter. Honda made a bad engine but I don't think Ferrari or Merc would have come close to the engines they have both in speed or reliability, if their development program had been cut in half and then trying to both develop new engine while constantly trying to fix the other stuff that isn't working yet. Honda were utterly moronic to agree to such a deal, but Mclaren both obviously approached Honda and gave them undeniably stupid design goals to try and achieve. Even if they'd relaxed the sizing demands it's unlikely they'd have made something genuinely good in 18 months, but considering how many failures over the past two years have been compress/mgu-h related and considering how much easier those would have been to improve and get more performance from in a larger package... I think the majority of the blame goes to Mclaren.
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Very important point you raise regarding were the performance of the other manufacturers would be if they had their development programs drastically cut. They too would have suffered catastrophic failures and much slower lap times. I am sure this would have resulted in a complete regulation change to testing and development but because it's only one manufacturer and one team attempting to develop and race under these impossible regulations, it's ignored. Honda could walk away and yes I know they have left F1 before but the landscape of F1 has changed. Manufacturers are not lining up to get into F1, however there seems to be a line forming to enter Formula E.
 
The regulations aren't impossible, that isn't what I was getting at. It was a personal choice to turn up to testing after only 18 months of development. Then regardless of the regulations the problem is rather than lets say 150 engineers working flat out on bringing an engine to the track for 2016 or 2017, they have probably 20 guys working on the 2017 engine and 130 trying to fix all the problems with the 2015 engine.

The regulations offer unlimited testing of new parts and tokens weren't required for the change of parts for reliability reasons.

What they needed to fix the 2015 engine, was that 150 engineers working on a completely different engine rather than trying to get their failed concept for 2015 working. Don't forget that Honda decided to double down with the concept for 2016, again this was their choice. They were allowed to change, something like 40% of the engine for 2016. That is more than enough tokens to move the compressor to the back of the engine block as Renault/Ferrari have it. the regulations didn't force them to stick with compressor in the V, a mixture of arrogance and pride did. Frankly if they'd gone to the FIA and held their hands up saying they screwed up, they can't fix this engine, can they have permission to move the compressor out of the V midseason with a radically different engine the FIA would likely have said, if it stops the embarrassing **** going out on track, sure.

What I was getting at was that with stunted development(which Mclaren wanted but Honda also incredibly stupidly agreed to), it only gets worse once you're finally competing because you have to split your resources massively between fixing the current engine and designing a new one. All the teams have that limitation regardless of engine rules.
 
drunkenmaster said:
The regulations aren't impossible, that isn't what I was getting at. It was a personal choice to turn up to testing after only 18 months of development. Then regardless of the regulations the problem is rather than lets say 150 engineers working flat out on bringing an engine to the track for 2016 or 2017, they have probably 20 guys working on the 2017 engine and 130 trying to fix all the problems with the 2015 engine.

The regulations offer unlimited testing of new parts and tokens weren't required for the change of parts for reliability reasons.

What they needed to fix the 2015 engine, was that 150 engineers working on a completely different engine rather than trying to get their failed concept for 2015 working. Don't forget that Honda decided to double down with the concept for 2016, again this was their choice. They were allowed to change, something like 40% of the engine for 2016. That is more than enough tokens to move the compressor to the back of the engine block as Renault/Ferrari have it. the regulations didn't force them to stick with compressor in the V, a mixture of arrogance and pride did. Frankly if they'd gone to the FIA and held their hands up saying they screwed up, they can't fix this engine, can they have permission to move the compressor out of the V midseason with a radically different engine the FIA would likely have said, if it stops the embarrassing **** going out on track, sure.

What I was getting at was that with stunted development(which Mclaren wanted but Honda also incredibly stupidly agreed to), it only gets worse once you're finally competing because you have to split your resources massively between fixing the current engine and designing a new one. All the teams have that limitation regardless of engine rules.
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I get your point. It's really difficult to watch a team like McLaren go through such turmoil. Like mentioned earlier in this thread, the time gap to there last championship is shocking.
 
Another day testing and another blown engine.

They're also the only team yet to do a time under 1:22.00. Either the engine is so fragile that they can't run on anything but minimum settings, or the car isn't much good either.

How could they get it so wrong?
 
reef said:
Another day testing and another blown engine.

They're also the only team yet to do a time under 1:22.00. Either the engine is so fragile that they can't run on anything but minimum settings, or the car isn't much good either.

How could they get it so wrong?
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This is an absolute disaster. Here is a really random thought and I am being serious, is there any possibility that McLaren may pull the plug for 2017?
 
With 5 engines gone in a week and possibly another 2 in day 1 of the second test... did Honda know this new engine isn't up to scratch because that's a LOT of spare engines to be carrying around!
 
Although a few have blown, some were changed due to other issues like electrics this morning so still usable. The mapping hasn't been done yet though, sounds as rough as 2015 before they tuned it in.
 
reef said:
Another day testing and another blown engine.

They're also the only team yet to do a time under 1:22.00. Either the engine is so fragile that they can't run on anything but minimum settings, or the car isn't much good either.

How could they get it so wrong?
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Probably both. JA seemed to indicate the oil tank problem was a McLaren design problem not at Honda one. After-all they're dry sump engines no? So the oil tank is a separate component.

The engine would have been benched for hundreds of hours (it's been on the dyno since Nov 16). so either it was constantly failing in bench tests, in which case Honda would be negligent even bringing it to testing, or the problems only occur when it's in the car.
 
From the sounds of it they are still running the same spec engine that they started testing with so its not to be surprised that they will continue to have teething problems with it.

Rumours around that they are trying to get the Australia spec engine in before the end of testing this week.
 
Syla5 said:
From the sounds of it they are still running the same spec engine that they started testing with so its not to be surprised that they will continue to have teething problems with it.

Rumours around that they are trying to get the Australia spec engine in before the end of testing this week.
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Rumours around that they are trying to get the Australia spec engine in before the end of the day, though AMUS are saying it's just a "planned battery change" for this afternoon.

I guess we'll soon see depending on how long it takes for Alonso to start this afternoon.
 
Mark365 said:
I wonder how many laps The Honda engine has completed in Barcelona compared to Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault engines.
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Mercedes 3537.8km
Ferrari 3123.505km
Sauber 2350.775km
Haas 2206.47km
Force India 2183.195km
Williams 2066.82km
Renault 1969.065km
Red Bull 1941.135km
McLaren 1461.67km
Toro Rosso 1438.395km
 
EVH said:
Mercedes 3537.8km
Ferrari 3123.505km
Sauber 2350.775km
Haas 2206.47km
Force India 2183.195km
Williams 2066.82km
Renault 1969.065km
Red Bull 1941.135km
McLaren 1461.67km
Toro Rosso 1438.395km
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WOW! Those figures speak for themselves. It's a shocking low amount of Km McLaren has registered. This is terrible.
 
but that includes last week.
seem to be doing better millage this week, but damn they are slow.

edit - or maybe not as Alonso still isn't back out.
 
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That is damning. Obvious, but damning.

He clearly doesn't care if he upsets Honda. The whole "GP2 engine!" was embarrassing for them, but that was an outburst in a race, however much it was calculated. This is worse in that it looks like he's almost past caring - he'll never give up, such is the man, but he's got the demeanour of a man who knows he won't be powered by them next year. I'm not overly familiar with the Japanese psyche, but I get the impression they won't be partial to being joked about by effectively one of their employees.
 
I wasn't aware that McLaren had signed a 10 year deal with Honda, but Boullier seemed to confirm this in one of his updates earlier this week. If two parties agree then it is simple to back out of any agreement; less so if just one wants to go.
 
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