McLaren Honda

Honda have presented zero evidence that they can catch up and overtake the Mercedes and Ferrari power units in the past three years. Ron Denis negotiated a cracking deal with the worst prepared engine manufacturer in F1. I don't know what else McLaren could be expected to do - they've tried the stay loyal and trust approach, which has reduced their performance levels to near the bottom of the field when they're fortunate enough to finish. Or they could try something else and try to be half-competitive at a cost until the engine rules change once again.

McLaren shareholders have very deep pockets. The change to Renault could be a disaster. It would be a disaster if they were slower than both Renault and Red Bull, but that at least is fixable over the course of 1 or 2 seasons. Sticking with Honda has already been a disaster, where they've fallen from being able to contend for a podium or win to an also ran that can sometimes scrap for a point or two, unable to attract sponsors or keep a top driver but being paid for the privilege of keeping the problem.
 
The_Abyss said:
Honda have presented zero evidence that they can catch up and overtake the Mercedes and Ferrari power units in the past three years. Ron Denis negotiated a cracking deal with the worst prepared engine manufacturer in F1. I don't know what else McLaren could be expected to do - they've tried the stay loyal and trust approach, which has reduced their performance levels to near the bottom of the field when they're fortunate enough to finish. Or they could try something else and try to be half-competitive at a cost until the engine rules change once again.

McLaren shareholders have very deep pockets. The change to Renault could be a disaster. It would be a disaster if they were slower than both Renault and Red Bull, but that at least is fixable over the course of 1 or 2 seasons. Sticking with Honda has already been a disaster, where they've fallen from being able to contend for a podium or win to an also ran that can sometimes scrap for a point or two, unable to attract sponsors or keep a top driver but being paid for the privilege of keeping the problem.
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Honda were coerced/forced/talked into the McLaren desired 'size zero' concept at launch and this forced the Turbo inside the V format. This was a terrible design and quickly reached it's maximum potential. They tried a similar 'size zero' with a slightly different layout for 2016 but again realised early that while it had better potential than the previous years engine it still wasn't going to give the kind of figures Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault were getting. So by early 2015 they decided to forego all the size zero rubbish and created an engine with the same 'split' layout as Mercedes launched with. This effectively means Honda have had 18 months of development with an angry Spaniard publically lambasting them on global TV every two weeks compared to Mercedes who likely had all the troubles Honda are having but in private and on the dyno. To say it's ALL Honda's fault isn't entirely true. McLaren must take some responsibility and this is why McLaren have annoyed me by criticising Honda so much publically.
 
Mercedes were working on their hybrid v6 for around 3 years before the formula started, plus they were the only manufacturer who made their own KERs system during the end of the v8 era (Ferrari subcontracted out to Magneti Marelli, and the Renault customers made their own systems). Honda have had barely 3 years and most of those have been with the cars racing.

It was surprising that Honda went with the compressor in the v approach as that is what Ferrari did and was the major cause of them not having enough electrical power. Mercedes putting the compressor at the front allows for a much larger unit which can supply the desired airflow at much lower rpm which allows more electrical harvesting from the turbo.
 
MissChief said:
Honda were coerced/forced/talked into the McLaren desired 'size zero' concept at launch and this forced the Turbo inside the V format. This was a terrible design and quickly reached it's maximum potential. They tried a similar 'size zero' with a slightly different layout for 2016 but again realised early that while it had better potential than the previous years engine it still wasn't going to give the kind of figures Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault were getting. So by early 2015 they decided to forego all the size zero rubbish and created an engine with the same 'split' layout as Mercedes launched with. This effectively means Honda have had 18 months of development with an angry Spaniard publically lambasting them on global TV every two weeks compared to Mercedes who likely had all the troubles Honda are having but in private and on the dyno. To say it's ALL Honda's fault isn't entirely true. McLaren must take some responsibility and this is why McLaren have annoyed me by criticising Honda so much publically.
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The problems at the start of this season were completely unexpected, those of the engines literally shaking themselves to bits. They had no such problems on the dyno, but when bolted onto the car they could only manage a handful of laps.

It would be easy to say that the gearbox or somewhere else along the drivetrain were causing these issues in conjunction with the PU, but in reality the bigger issue is Honda were determined to do much of the work in Japan (despite having UK offices and facilities) while McLaren are obviously very much based in the UK. Say what you will about size-zero (and I think that's far too broad a term), but the main issues are of logistics and have been since the start of the project.
 
Honda moved their F1 engine production to Milton Keynes last summer so they could expand and supply a second team easier. I think TR are getting the engine at the right time, might still have some teething but the logistics are moving the right way.
 
I think it's an Utter Utter moronic decision by McLaren.
Basically they have just done nigh on 3 years free testing.... For Red Bull !

I fully expect Honda to REALLY throw developments at McLaren for the rest of the season.
I believe Torro Rosso will BOSS them next year before Red Bull pull the PU into their No.1 team.

Time will tell
 
lol, Honda are crap right now, simple as that. They have no chance of being competitive next year, if they showed big signs of huge reliability improvement next year and decent performance than Mclaren could..... go back for 2019.

Red Bull have no interest in Honda right now, people are framing this as Red Bull testing the waters for a works deal with Honda, no big team is looking at Honda and hoping for a works team, no small team either.

Red Bull have been rumoured to want to get rid of TR for years. They are spending 10s of millions of their own money to get a second team going just to get their drivers in a team, it would be FAR cheaper to pay a team to take their young drivers than running a second team themselves. Maybe TR cost 50mil a year while they could pay FI/Sauber 5mil per driver to take them, huge huge saving.

This deal is about finding a bigger sponsor to reduce the amount of money RBR has to put into TR every year, either just to save money full stop or to increase their own budget and the long term goal is about making TR sellable. There aren't many customers for F1 teams and it's bad for RBR if F1 drops to 9 teams. Pushing Honda onto TR makes TR the obvious team to buy if and when Honda feel like buying their own team, that is what this move is about, saving 10s of millions for RBR with the hope of selling the team also.

Honda are 3 seconds behind Merc/Ferrari a lap right now in race, they have pathetic performance, Mercedes at their best engineering output aren't going to find 3 seconds + in a season in upgrades(don't forget that Honda were even worse at the start of the season). There is zero chance the magically spec 4 is enough to make Honda look good and I'd bet good money it's first introduction will see at least 2 races of failures in free practice and maybe failure to finish races as well.

Look at how many points Renault engine cars have then look at Honda, even with Renault reliability issues that engine looks solid as a rock when compared to Honda.

2019 is the earliest chance any big team would take a risk on Honda and that would absolutely require Honda to be within a second of the top teams and finish the season only using lets call it 6 or 7 engines max. But I'd put chances of Honda achieving that next year at <5%. Maybe 2019 they have a half decent engine and half decent reliability but again if Honda actually start looking good in 2019, chances are they'll buy TR and be their own works team or Mclaren can go back to Honda. This doesn't close the door on anything it just means Mclaren get a better engine for the next 2 years and aren't being embarrassed at the back of the grid.
 
Here's a thought...who makes the decision to change engines during a race weekend at McLaren-Honda?

Lets say this deal goes through, surely at that point Honda "won't care" about their relationship with McLaren and will just chuck any parts onto the car, basically making the rest of the season one massive test session for Torro Rosso? McLaren meanwhile will start testing parts for the 2019 chassis (Halo?) surely?
 
MissChief said:
Honda were coerced/forced/talked into the McLaren desired 'size zero' concept at launch and this forced the Turbo inside the V format. This was a terrible design and quickly reached it's maximum potential. They tried a similar 'size zero' with a slightly different layout for 2016 but again realised early that while it had better potential than the previous years engine it still wasn't going to give the kind of figures Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault were getting. So by early 2015 they decided to forego all the size zero rubbish and created an engine with the same 'split' layout as Mercedes launched with. This effectively means Honda have had 18 months of development with an angry Spaniard publically lambasting them on global TV every two weeks compared to Mercedes who likely had all the troubles Honda are having but in private and on the dyno. To say it's ALL Honda's fault isn't entirely true. McLaren must take some responsibility and this is why McLaren have annoyed me by criticising Honda so much publically.
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I thought that sticking with the turbo in the "V" was mainly because they were limited by the token system they didn't have enough tokens to change the complete lay out of the engine. With regards to the only 18months development etc, I would hazard a guess that the HCCI route Honda have taken has been far more costly in terms of progress then the lay out of the engine its self.


Steeps said:
Honda moved their F1 engine production to Milton Keynes last summer so they could expand and supply a second team easier. I think TR are getting the engine at the right time, might still have some teething but the logistics are moving the right way.
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I don't believe this is correct, the base in Milton Keynes is where the engines go back to between races for strip down and rebuild. The development and production of the engines still takes place in Japan. This is due to the fact that getting the cars back to Woking and then sending the engines back to japan would be crazy.
 
Syla5 said:
I don't believe this is correct, the base in Milton Keynes is where the engines go back to between races for strip down and rebuild. The development and production of the engines still takes place in Japan. This is due to the fact that getting the cars back to Woking and then sending the engines back to japan would be crazy.
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You're probably right, just remember seeing something in one of my feeds a while ago about recruiting extra staff for Honda F1 engines in the UK at MK.
 
carrot1401 said:
Here's a thought...who makes the decision to change engines during a race weekend at McLaren-Honda?

Lets say this deal goes through, surely at that point Honda "won't care" about their relationship with McLaren and will just chuck any parts onto the car, basically making the rest of the season one massive test session for Torro Rosso? McLaren meanwhile will start testing parts for the 2019 chassis (Halo?) surely?
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That was my point !
3 years free testing for Red Bull. ZERO benefit for themselves.
 
MissChief said:
Honda were coerced/forced/talked into the McLaren desired 'size zero' concept at launch and this forced the Turbo inside the V format. This was a terrible design and quickly reached it's maximum potential. They tried a similar 'size zero' with a slightly different layout for 2016 but again realised early that while it had better potential than the previous years engine it still wasn't going to give the kind of figures Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault were getting. So by early 2015 they decided to forego all the size zero rubbish and created an engine with the same 'split' layout as Mercedes launched with. This effectively means Honda have had 18 months of development with an angry Spaniard publically lambasting them on global TV every two weeks compared to Mercedes who likely had all the troubles Honda are having but in private and on the dyno. To say it's ALL Honda's fault isn't entirely true. McLaren must take some responsibility and this is why McLaren have annoyed me by criticising Honda so much publically.
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At no point did I say that it was all Honda's fault. But as you bring it up then yes, it is entirely Honda's fault. They allowed their engineering solution to be compromised by McLaren's specifications and delivered a 'terrible design'. Twice.

They then tried to copy the design of other teams, and failed. Miserably.

At the same time they still refused to bring in external experience and expertise. Until recently they refused to address the logistical problem of building engines thousands of miles away from the car.

Still, whether or not they're entirely to blame is neither here not there. It is only recently that the non-driving members of the McLaren team have shied away from hiding their criticism. The outcome is the same though - a complete shambles and utter humiliation.

The one positive has been 3 years of hilarious radio messages from Button and Alonso, and things getting so bad that finally McLaren yielded to fan pressure and finally delivered a livery that wasn't dull as dishwater.
 
The_Abyss said:
At no point did I say that it was all Honda's fault. But as you bring it up then yes, it is entirely Honda's fault. They allowed their engineering solution to be compromised by McLaren's specifications and delivered a 'terrible design'. Twice.

They then tried to copy the design of other teams, and failed. Miserably.

At the same time they still refused to bring in external experience and expertise. Until recently they refused to address the logistical problem of building engines thousands of miles away from the car.

Still, whether or not they're entirely to blame is neither here not there. It is only recently that the non-driving members of the McLaren team have shied away from hiding their criticism. The outcome is the same though - a complete shambles and utter humiliation.

The one positive has been 3 years of hilarious radio messages from Button and Alonso, and things getting so bad that finally McLaren yielded to fan pressure and finally delivered a livery that wasn't dull as dishwater.
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Mario Ilien has apparently been helping them out and the spec 1.8, due in Japan is the one he's had most input into.
 
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