mercedes / pirelli tribunal thread

deuse said:
2) the only thing button ever destroyed was an unborn child ;)
Click to expand...

Really? We're going with a red top 'quoting' a jilted girlfriend as the arbiter of truth here? If that's the case, then presumably I can start making up whatever **** I want :) I could even post about how Bernie Ecclestone isn't Satan! :D Okay, maybe that's a step too far for this forum.
 
MissChief said:
People question his ability because he's never had to overcome a bad car.
Click to expand...

At the beginning of last season, his car wasnt great, yet he was beating most drivers, including Hamilton/Button, who at the start of the season, were in the best car.

My belief is that if Vettel or Alonso were at McLaren last year, McLaren would've won the WDC and possibly the WCC.

McLaren had a great car last year, arguably equal best across the season and Kimi, who had not raced in F1 for 2 years, returned (in a Lotus) to beat the McLaren drivers, in what was probably the 4th best car.

Many people site the screw-ups of McLaren pit crew, last year, however, to give you an idea of what a top driver can do - in the last race of the year, Vettel was in last place. He then drove into 6th place, just 9 seconds from the lead. That's what Vettel did in what was the 2nd best car in that race (McLaren had the fastest car). When the chips are down, the best sportsman find a way to win. Lesser sportsman give up and their fans make excuses.

In the last 2 decades, watching F1, there are 3 drivers which I've felt were/are destined to be all-time greats:

MSc, Alonso and Vettel.

These 3, I've felt, are/were head and shoulders above the rest.
 
I agree, except, on every part of what you said. Vettel should have been penalised if not black flagged for ruining someone elses race, managed to hit a sign on the side of the road and had a CRAPLOAD of luck. Coming 6th in the second best car is an achievement and proves how great he was, despite all the terrible driving he did in that same race, and the fact that his 2nd fastest car overtook a bunch of cars that were so so so so so much slower there wasn't a contest between him and anyone else on the track?

That is the race that proves how great he is? Vettel would have won the title at Mclaren, 3 point title win, one 15 second pitstop and 4 place loss and boom, title gone... not a chance. Vettel had the best car over the season, the best team, the best tactical choices and the fewest massive screw ups.


As for Hamilton struggling at a new car, not really. he's BEATING his team mate, he's beaten him in qualifying, he's beaten him in races, he's currently beating him. He SHOULD improve further still as he does get that last 0.5% of performance out of the car from experience using the car.

Every race is different, remember last year with all the "Mclaren are going to win the title RBR are rubbish" because peoples insight generally stretches to a two race history with no care for the different tracks, changes to car and driver preference of the races still left to go?

Hamilton and Rosberg will make mistakes,one race that will mean dropping 1st to 4th, another its 11th to 13th, same mistakes, massively different result, thats purely down to luck, EVERYONE makes mistakes, Msc, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, when they hurt you is down to luck. That is racing(and all other sports), the Merc, along with all other cars are great at specific tracks and drivers are better/worse depending on the track. Making bold claims about which driver is better, over the basis of a few races rather than a whole season(if not significantly more) and ignoring any other issues is beyond ridiculous. Hamilton's best on track race against Rosberg's was Rosberg's worst race, and that was when Hamilton got a completely not his fault tyre destruction and a truly utterly absurd penalty.

if Rosberg hadn't gotten pole at Monaco, he'd have never in a million years won the race, and likewise when you aren't 100% confident in a new car, Monaco is pretty much the single worst track on the planet to expect the absolute best from due to zero margin for error, and yet Hamilton was far far closer to Rosberg than Rosberg has been to Hamilton at other races.

Both drivers have been subject to poor results due to poor tactical choices that feel more like team choices than driver choices, and while most ignore it, you get punished for being fast enough to trail the guy ahead of you, and rewarded for being slower and unable to keep up, later in the race both Rosberg and Hamilton have been hurt and fallen into the others grasp and lost points because being the better/faster driver on the day, meant they ended up stuck up someones exhaust.

Looking at the comparison, Hamilton has beaten Rosberg 4 to 3 in qualifying, and by significantly larger margins, likewise Hamilton has finished ahead of Rosberg in the race 3 to 2 excluding the two retirements, 5 to 2 including them, he has more points. In general I think Hamilton has more to learn about the car and more to gain from time in the car than Rosberg. Considering Rosberg has closed the gap considerably by winning Monaco, and how there isn't another track that comes remotely close to Monaco in tyre wear or inability to overtake, I doubt he'll have another chance to gain that many points on Hamilton in reality.


Either way, the young driver test ban is a joke, Merc did almost nothing, gained basically nothing and lose out on a vastly vastly more important test now. Lets take bets on if Ferrari get a ban from the young driver test for Massa being involved in a test.
 
Last edited:
sunama said:
At the beginning of last season, his car wasnt great, yet he was beating most drivers, including Hamilton/Button, who at the start of the season, were in the best car.

My belief is that if Vettel or Alonso were at McLaren last year, McLaren would've won the WDC and possibly the WCC.
Click to expand...


so your saying vettel or alonso would have won races where mclaren had been making mistakes in the pit stops?

it dont matter how good you are, you cant win races if your pit crew mess up as much as mclaren did.

sunama said:
Many people site the screw-ups of McLaren pit crew, last year, however, to give you an idea of what a top driver can do - in the last race of the year, Vettel was in last place. He then drove into 6th place, just 9 seconds from the lead. That's what Vettel did in what was the 2nd best car in that race (McLaren had the fastest car). When the chips are down, the best sportsman find a way to win. Lesser sportsman give up and their fans make excuses.
Click to expand...

in brazil 2009 hamilton started 18th and finished on the podium in 3rd.

im sure alonso has done similar, even button did it in canada..
 
So, are RB going to take this matter to a civil court?

Testgate appears to be far from over with a report claiming "Red Bull are threatening to take the law into their own hands" after Mercedes' soft penalty.

Although Mercedes were found guilty of breaching rules and bringing the sport into disrepute after conducting a three-day test with Pirelli in Spain, they were only handed a reprimand and banned from the Young Driver Test later this year.

The punishment has not gone down well with Red Bull and Ferrari with the latter saying it is nothing more than a "rap across the knuckles".

Red Bull, who suggested before the verdict that Mercedes should get more than just a monetary fine, are still fuming and want to take matters further.

According to The Times, 'Red Bull are threatening to take the law into their own hands as a direct challenge to the authority of the FIA, the governing body, and Jean Todt, its president whose standing is at rock bottom in the most important sport in his portfolio.

'Red Bull executives are considering boycotting the Young Drivers' Test to set up their own private session in a mirror of the Mercedes case. A private test would breach the FIA rulebook but Red Bull are said to have told [F1 chief executive Bernie] Ecclestone that they would take the risk of a reprimand - the punishment meted out to Mercedes - for the benefit of three days of testing.'

Ferrari are also unhappy with the FIA and president Jean Todt, but it appears they will "pull back from any threat to stage a private test".

A source close to Ferrari told The Times: "How can a reprimand be enough to punish a team that struggled at the Spanish Grand Prix, tested and then won in Monaco? No one knew about the test, yet the tribunal does not seem to have investigated why not and what exactly went on. No wonder the teams are angry. They have had enough of the FIA. The threats might be empty at the moment but the fact that these conversations are taking place shows that no one is happy with Todt or the FIA. The crunch is coming and everyone wonders when and how. Maybe this is the time."
Click to expand...
 
40. The Tribunal considered carefully all of the written submissions which had been made by the Parties, the evidence contained in the 7 written statements,and the oral testimony given by Ross Brawnand the oral arguments advanced during the hearing. It would serve no useful purpose to set all those matters out in this decision but the Tribunal has referred above to those which it regards as being the most significant. Having taken all such matters into account, the Tribunal makes the following findings:

(1) The track testing, which is the subject of these proceedings, was not carried out by Pirelli and/or Mercedes with the intention that Mercedes should obtain any unfair sporting advantage.

(2) Neither Pirelli nor Mercedes acted in bad faith at any material time.

(3) Both Pirelli and Mercedes disclosed to FIA at least the essence of what they intended to do in relation to the test and attempted to obtain permission for it; and Mercedes had no reason to believe that approval had not been given .
Click to expand...

Red Bull should be mad at the FIA, not Pirelli or Mercedes.

I very much doubt they (RB) will arrange their own test, and expect "only" a reprimand. If such a team were to try anything I can only imagine the punishment would be eye-watering, if not only to send a message.
 
drunkenmaster said:
and had a CRAPLOAD of luck. .
Click to expand...

Indeed. I couldnt believe his car had next to no critical damage and was perfectly fine to last the rest of the race after that shunt in turn 4 in Brazil.

If that was Hamilton, the engine would have blown up and all four wheels would have fallen off the car.
 
Jono8 said:
Indeed. I couldnt believe his car had next to no critical damage and was perfectly fine to last the rest of the race after that shunt in turn 4 in Brazil.

If that was Hamilton, the engine would have blown up and all four wheels would have fallen off the car.
Click to expand...

That was a massive amount of luck, I've never had to rub my eyes so much to make sure I was seeing what I was.

That shunt on his right rear (from Bruno?) ... I can't believe it didn't puncture his tyre at the least! :eek:
 
[RXP]Andy;24506746 said:
So, are RB going to take this matter to a civil court?
Click to expand...

"How can a reprimand be enough to punish a team that struggled at the Spanish Grand Prix, tested and then won in Monaco?"
Click to expand...

I can understand why RB / Ferrari are fuming with the outcome but this is a bit of a stupid question.

Whoever said this seems surprised that the fastest car on the grid (over a single lap) gets on pole and then no one is able to overtake them at Monaco.
 
Irish_Tom said:
I can understand why RB / Ferrari are fuming with the outcome but this is a bit of a stupid question.

Whoever said this seems surprised that the fastest car on the grid (over a single lap) gets on pole and then no one is able to overtake them at Monaco.
Click to expand...

I admire Ferrari's competitiveness though, which is apparent in their analysis.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom