Middle class students 'should pay more'

Income wise, my family is probably classed as middle class. But my parents more often than not have no money. They have a mortgage and bills you see, wheras lower income familys have rent and less bills.

What do they think will happen, a family earning £38000 has enough money to send a their kids through uni? Mine sure as hell can't, and I will not be able to go to uni, even part time working i couldn't support myself. So cheers, I'm apparently not entitled to an education anymore, idiots, it should be equal.
 
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It's amazing how the CBI that as far as I know is a business concern is coming up with these ideas. When more and more of the over the top bonuses and raises that business exec's give themselves are being publicised, the business sector decides that it's the education sector that should take the hit to try and sort out our government debt. Genius....
 
Tefal said:
Unless of course degrees have become so common that jobs that never required them before now do, so they aren't actually earning anything extra.
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I would hope your average engineer, lawyer, doctor, biochemist etc. coming out of university would be earning well above the national average wage, at least within a few years of graduating with a decent degree. The problem with any old job an untrained monkey could do requiring a degree has more to do with the policy of getting 50% into uni than the other way around.
 
philjohn said:
I would hope your average engineer, lawyer, doctor, biochemist etc. coming out of university would be earning well above the national average wage, at least within a few years of graduating with a decent degree.
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Those people really are in the minority though, with many more people studying politics, media, sociology, psycology, art and all the doss degrees.
 
Engineers and scientists are usually poorly paid.

OK so the engineers may get a little more - but still rather less than their contemporaries in 'professional' jobs.

Research scientists get just about what they need to survive but not much more.

An engineers pay-scale (unless you go into management) really isn't very exciting - I know a couple where one is a teacher, one an engineer - both started careers at the same time, both earn about the same still.

The other argument is that I think we will always need 'artists' to keep the world from becoming drab, practical, and logical. There will always be posh, rich layabouts...

Agreed that most new universities should return to being polys. Also, I think the A Level system needs to have national %-based gradelines - top 15% get A, 15-30% get B, etc etc. No need to argue about 'deflation' of grades then, all marks are against their peers, universities know for sure who the top percentile of the year groups are.
 
Sharlaw said:
It's amazing how the CBI that as far as I know is a business concern is coming up with these ideas. When more and more of the over the top bonuses and raises that business exec's give themselves are being publicised, the business sector decides that it's the education sector that should take the hit to try and sort out our government debt. Genius....
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No surprise here. British firms by and large have a rubbish record on training staff. The CBI refute this everytime by saying that schools should be providing the training, whilst moaning on the other hand that the workforce lack skills. They have a point to an extent, but highly skilled workplace training or just natural experience that takes several years to learn to a decent standard is never likely to be learned in school.
 
Thats true. Having the knowledge is one thing. Being able to use that knowledge and apply it to a practical situation within a working environment is another.
 
sara said:
Research scientists get just about what they need to survive but not much more.
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depends if they are in academia or industry, working for big pharma will get you more money.

sara said:
An engineers pay-scale (unless you go into management) really isn't very exciting - I know a couple where one is a teacher, one an engineer - both started careers at the same time, both earn about the same still.
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A teacher will earn over £24,908 (current median wage) once they've hit M2 on the pay scale (3 years), so my point holds that engineers will probably be on an above average salary. Still, shows how much new teachers are underpaid, especially when my wife started with a BSc, PhD and a PGCE.

Agreed that most new universities should return to being polys. Also, I think the A Level system needs to have national %-based gradelines - top 15% get A, 15-30% get B, etc etc. No need to argue about 'deflation' of grades then, all marks are against their peers, universities know for sure who the top percentile of the year groups are.
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100% agree on both points.
 
philjohn said:
A teacher will earn over £24,908 (current median wage) once they've hit M2 on the pay scale (3 years), so my point holds that engineers will probably be on an above average salary. Still, shows how much new teachers are underpaid, especially when my wife started with a BSc, PhD and a PGCE.
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Fair enough, I know no scientists in big industry.

As for the teacher wage you put forward - I have been a graduated electronic engineer for 3 years myself, and am on a salary of /just/ below the one above, working for a large multinational.
 
meghatronic said:
In my experience, a lot of middle class students blow their entire loan on plasma screens and consoles, or ISA it.

Easy to generalise.
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In my experience it was the other way round; those who got full grants blew all their money on consoles and cars etc. along with those whose parents were loaded, but those in the middle just had to make do
 
I dont think there should be any fees at all (I dont pay any :D), nevermind an increase :|. Find the money elsewhere, better yet where does all the ridiculous amount of tax the UK pays actually go =/
 
The problem is everyone and their dog is accepted into University these days. I read somewhere that a chemistry A level pass at grade C only takes 33%, no wonder employers are trying to limit the number of people going into University.

I run my own company and unless the applicant has at least a 2.1 from an established University my HR dept won't even read any further. Anyone with degrees from Universities that used to be Polytechnics and Further Education Colleges a few years ago just get binned. If you did not get a decent and relevant degree from a Russell University you do not get an interview. My company is not the only one with this policy.

From what I read, the CBI were not just talking about middle-class students, they were talking about a general raising of tuition fees, lowering of grants and raising of interest rates on loans.
 
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Great, looks like I'm going to be squeezed some more for bothering to work before I started this course...

Gaidin109 said:
I run my own company and unless the applicant has at least a 2.1 from an established University my HR dept won't even read any further. Anyone with degrees from Universities that used to be Polytechnics and Further Education Colleges a few years ago just get binned. If you did not get a decent and relevant degree from a Russell University you do not get an interview. My company is not the only one with this policy.
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Old-fashioned elitism I see. So you'd bin my CV on the basis that Kingston is a worse university than the 20 or institutions in RUG?

How about they **** off and stop taking taxpayers' money first, then I'll consider paying more fees as acceptable.
 
sr4470 said:
Great, looks like I'm going to be squeezed some more for bothering to work before I started this course...



Old-fashioned elitism I see. So you'd bin my CV on the basis that Kingston is a worse university than the 20 or institutions in RUG?

How about they **** off and stop taking taxpayers' money first, then I'll consider paying more fees as acceptable.
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My case in point.
 
Gaidin109 said:
My case in point.
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I chose the course for its relevance to my sector, namely things like project management and the inclusion of vendor certifications... so your answer doesn't make a lot of sense as it is. Would you like to explain?

I went out into the wide world of work for quite a few years before choosing to study this degree, hence my reference in the last post...
 
Looking to do computing at the University of West England (Bristol) next year.
My family income is somewhere in 40-50K, there's no way my parents can afford to loan me money, pay for university as well as their own mortgage and well-being.
How do Wales and Scottish people manage to have free universities? If we want to go to a Scottish university we have to pay, but they don't??
At the moment I got a grand total of about £50 a month funding from UWE, and a few grand loan per year. That means I have to work to afford a flat in Bristol, as well as a full time Computing Bachelor of Science Degree.
Whereas my friends thats parents dropped out of school and are now on the doll, get a free house, free bills ect ect gets it all paid for, thousands of free monnies from UWE and massive loans from the government.
I don't resent people for it, merely the system. Stupid system >. >
Thats my rant for the day!
Gooooooo computttinnngg xD
 
sr4470 said:
I chose the course for its relevance to my sector, namely things like project management and the inclusion of vendor certifications... so your answer doesn't make a lot of sense as it is. Would you like to explain?

I went out into the wide world of work for quite a few years before choosing to study this degree, hence my reference in the last post...
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I was actually referring to your choice to swear instead of putting forward an argument as to why the policy is wrong rather than your choice of Uni.
We used to employ from any background and Uni, but after several employees we hired on the strength of their degree failed to understand even the basic requirements of the positions in which they were hired (to our considerable cost) we brought in this policy. It's as simple as that. We have numerous people who work for us who have degrees from non-russell universities, but these were hired on their experience and reputation, not just the strength of the university degree they hold.
In fact we have one project manager that doesn't have any formal qualifications at all and he is excellent, But if someone straight out of uni with no experience sends us a CV, then the russell policy applies. It's not fair and I'm sure we miss out on some excellent candidates, but until the exam system is overhauled we have no choice.
 
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Gaidin109 said:
I was actually referring to your choice to swear instead of putting forward an argument as to why the policy is wrong rather than your choice of Uni.
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I apologise if that sounded vitrolic, however I'm not sure why a few stars in my post suddenly makes the rest of my post irrelevant. Back on point, the simple answer from me: state subsidies. Are universities private or not?

Gaidin109 said:
We used to employ from any background and Uni, but after several employees we hired on the strength of their degree failed to understand even the basic requirements of the positions in which they were hired (to our considerable cost) we brought in this policy. It's as simple as that. We have numerous people who work for us who have degrees from non-russell universities, but these were hired on their experience and reputation, not just the strength of the university degree they hold.
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Right, which is why I brought up the fact that'd I'd worked in a professional role. I can understand someone fresh out of university with no work experience being turned down.

Gaidin109 said:
In fact we have one project manager that doesn't have any formal qualifications at all and he is excellent, But if someone straight out of uni with no experience send a CV, then the russell policy applies. It's not fair and I'm sure we miss out on some excellent candidates, but until the exam system is overhauled we have no choice.
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I think we misunderstood each other here. I was referring to experienced candidates.
 
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