Middle class students 'should pay more'

[Chronictank]

They need to bring back government sponsored apprentaships (sp?) imo
Then you would have less people going uni rather than everyone being forced there

 

[Indy500]

They need to bring back government sponsored apprentaships (sp?) imo
Then you would have less people going uni rather than everyone being forced there

No subsidies, get rid of red tape too. There has to be a real incentive to hire youngsters beyond throwing money at companies. Now I'm not pretending I know exactly what they're after (if I did, I'd be in management right about now), but it can't be that difficult to consult with small business representatives.

 

[Dazzy_G]

At UKC they are pretty killing off the Sciences in favour of stupid degrees. which is a real shame as UKC was always a great Science institute.

 

[Gaidin109]

I apologise if that sounded vitrolic, however I'm not sure why a few stars in my post suddenly makes the rest of my post irrelevant. Back on point, the simple answer from me: state subsidies. Are universities private or not?



Right, which is why I brought up the fact that'd I'd worked in a professional role. I can understand someone fresh out of university with no work experience being turned down.



I think we misunderstood each other here. I was referring to experienced candidates.

The State subsidises universities so they will accept people from poorer backgrounds and I am of the opinion that this is a good idea, but I do not think it's fair that the RUG get two-thirds of this funding. I went to University two decades ago and my parents had to pay my expenses, board and lodging and books, etc, they did not have to pay tuition fees. There were none.

My point was that there are too many people going to university who have no idea why they are going, what they will do when they leave, or even whether they will use the degree they are working for. This brings down the overall quality of the qualification system. Apprenticeships and vocational training should be put forward as viable alternatives to oversubscribed universities and the raising of fees is one way to do this. Hopefully people will think and evaluate their choices more if they are financially responsible for them.

As an experienced person I would hope that your work history would be the first thing a prospective employer will see, your degree would then be secondary (not irrelevant.) We hire on these principles. We also offer two apprenticeships in computer engineering each year that require nothing more than passing our in-house training and examination system which lasts one month and is paid (that is to get accepted onto the course, not how long the apprenticeship is.) I unfortunately have no faith in our examination system at all anymore.

 

[Indy500]

The State subsidises universities so they will accept people from poorer backgrounds and I am of the opinion that this is a good idea, but I do not think its fair that the RUG get two-thirds of this funding. I went to University two decades ago and my parents had to pay my expenses, board and lodging and books etc, they did not have to pay tuition fees. There were none.

I have to pay both my living costs, and fees. I had to borrow a loan from the government to do so. I got pretty much zero in the way of grants. Why? because apparently I'm not classed as independent. I get no money from anyone else and live alone in rented accomodation so I have no choice but to a) stay on the dole till I get into employment or b) do this course to improve my prospects.

My point was that there are too many people going to university who have no idea why they are going, what they will do when they leave, or even whether they will use the degree they are working for. This brings down the overall quality of the qualification system. Apprenticeships and vocational training should be put forward as viable alternatives to oversubscribed universities and the raising of fees is one way to do this. Hopefully people will think and evaluate their choices more if they are financially responsible for them.

That's a legitimate concern, but in my case the industry itself decided what they wanted to put in here. Business is in the course title because Kingston was responding to the demands of local businesses wanting specific skillsets. Project management being one example. I can assure you I weighed up the financial implications - which is why I am disappointed that the funding goes to people who pop out sprogs rather than talented but poor individuals.

As an experienced person I would hope that your work history would be the first thing a prospective employer will see, your degree would then be secondary (not irrelevant.) We hire on these principles. We also offer 2 apprenticeships in computer engineering each year that require nothing more than passing our inhouse training and examination system which lasts one month and is paid. I unfortunately have no faith in our examination system at all anymore.

I see very few apprenticeships, the ones that exist are saturated with applications. Lets face facts, who is going to take an apprentice that is 20-something with experience when a 16-18 year old is cheaper? Especially in this time of recession...

Out of interest, why "computer engineering"? I take it this covers aspects like PCB construction? I have no idea what your business involves so excuse my ignorance here

 

[Beansprout]

Income of a student's parents shouldn't affect what the student is entitled to, beyond the current system which is fair enough - I didn't know the limit for means-testing was £60k though. You could say that should be reduced, but then families with 2 kids to pay for...etc.

Among my friends there's an entire range - friends with poor parents who are nontheless spoilt, friends with millionaire parents who have to fund themselves.

It's really down to the individual student; making a middle class student pay more will have no effect on those who waste money as they'll simply borrow/scrounge more to fund their unsustainable student life.

 

[Indy500]

Income of a student's parents shouldn't affect what the student is entitled to, beyond the current system which is fair enough - I didn't know the limit for means-testing was £60k though. You could say that should be reduced, but then families with 2 kids to pay for...etc.

Among my friends there's an entire range - friends with poor parents who are nontheless spoilt, friends with millionaire parents who have to fund themselves.

It's really down to the individual student; making a middle class student pay more will have no effect on those who waste money as they'll simply borrow/scrounge more to fund their unsustainable student life.

You need to check the requirements for being declared an independent student - they are ridiculous. They include having a child and being married. You could do those before 18 and have access to grants etc on what is quite frankly a dubious basis.

The means-testing limit was £50k last time I checked, and above £30,000 the grants are minuscule, a couple of hundred maybe. Your loan is the bulk of the funding in 95% of cases.

 

[Gaidin109]

Out of interest, why "computer engineering"? I take it this covers aspects like PCB construction? I have no idea what your business involves so excuse my ignorance here

We specialize in the design, build and installation of specialist mainframes and supercomputers. We teach everything from electronic engineering to software design and software-hardware integration. Our apprenticeship is fully funded by us and leads to a Bsc in computer engineering. I am not an engineer myself, I was an analyst before starting the firm.

I also agree that the funding is being misused in general. I assume you were not eligible for retraining grants as you were unemployed, I am a little ignorant of the benefit system I'm afraid.

 

[Wizzkidy]

As far as I am concered middle class students have middle class parents which means yes they should pay slightly more if they can aoffrd it only if it goes on education

 

[[TW]Fox]

Student loan system sucks, it should be the same loan for everyone regardless of income.

Then I'd have been able to afford the 540i instead

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Student loan system sucks, it should be the same loan for everyone regardless of income.

Then I'd have been able to afford the 540i instead

LOL.

Think of your reduced carbon footprint Fox for getting the 530 instead.

 

[Gaidin109]

That's a legitimate concern, but in my case the industry itself decided what they wanted to put in here. Business is in the course title because Kingston was responding to the demands of local businesses wanting specific skillsets. Project management being one example. I can assure you I weighed up the financial implications - which is why I am disappointed that the funding goes to people who pop out sprogs rather than talented but poor individuals.

What industry are you in?, and what course are you studying?

 

[Indy500]

We specialize in the design, build and installation of specialist mainframes and supercomputers. We teach everything from electronic engineering to software design and software-hardware integration. Our apprenticeship is fully funded by us and leads to a Bsc in computer engineering. I am not an engineer myself, I was an analyst before starting the firm.

Sounds fair enough to me, it is a shame more companies don't do something similar or even just lower-level courses specific to their industry. At the moment it seems like lecturers and other vested interests are getting richer off the back of increased student numbers.

Technically while I'd be graduating with a typical BSc IT degree, two-thirds of the course is not delivered in the traditional lecture format. Basically, it requires a lot more initiative.

 

[dowie]

Get rid of the mickey mouse degrees

this tbh... get rid of a few universities too while we're at it

we don't need the government target of 50% in higher education

it is pointless encouraging so many young people to go to university when at the lower end of the scale a lot of them will be needlessly getting into debt for relatively little benefit

not only is it costing the taxpayer money to fund all these extra uni places but we're also losing potential tax revenue through these people not being in work or say completing apprenticeships

If we scale back on university places then we could probably reduce or even eliminate fees rather than looking to increase them....

 

[Gaidin109]

Sounds fair enough to me, it is a shame more companies don't do something similar or even just lower-level courses specific to their industry. At the moment it seems like lecturers and other vested interests are getting richer off the back of increased student numbers.

Technically while I'd be graduating with a typical BSc IT degree, two-thirds of the course is not delivered in the traditional lecture format. Basically, it requires a lot more initiative.

I agree which is why we began the apprenticeships, but they are extremely expensive and so we can only over two per year which gives us 6 students and 2 paid interns at any one time.
It annoys me that companies complain that the skill-base is not there and that they have to recruit from abroad yet they do nothing to address this. I am of the opinion some of the funding for education should be filtered into apprenticeships of all levels. The companies involved would then be able to train and educate their workforce themselves. We have found that the people we have trained ourselves are more productive and loyal than those we have employed from outside.

 

[jamoor]

I really do think they should keep the morons out of university and keep it to serious subjects only.

If everyone went to uni, where would the people who repair stuff, builders etc come from?

 

[Indy500]

I agree which is why we began the apprenticeships, but they are extremely expensive and so we can only over two per year which gives us 6 students and 2 paid interns at any one time.
It annoys me that companies complain that the skill-base is not there and that they have to recruit from abroad yet they do nothing to address this.

I am of the opinion some of the funding for education should be filtered into apprenticeships of all levels. The companies involved would then be able to train and educate their workforce themselves. We have found that the people we have trained ourselves are more productive and loyal than those we have employed from outside.

It is very much an employers' market, as you say the foreign labour is there and they don't seem to care whether they live in a pig-sty or not because £££ are worth more in their home country.

IT is a fast-moving sector, unfortunately I cannot afford to get officially certified in everything out there - I can't even run a car at the moment. I'm not getting luxuries out of the loan system, I can barely make ends meet. No "bank of Mum and Dad" here.

Teaching one's self is all well and good but outside of a corporate environment it seems worthless. All this severely limits my chances of getting back into work. I'm not expecting a megabucks living out of university but I would hope that I'd be taken more seriously during the selection process. On the plus side I still have free time during the week to seek employment...

PS: Sent you an email, wanted to ask a question about your company

 

[Vonhelmet]

You fail to grasp however that, in general, those who go to university will be bringing more money into the treasury in the form of greater tax receipts than those working in roles that don't require higher education, so people who obtain a degree do pay for their education, possibly many times over.

Except that the vast bulk of uni degrees are now just used as a stepping stone to get on a graduate course on which you will get the qualification you actually need for the job. If you just got the qualification, you'd be in the same position but 3 years ahead of time and £15k+ better off.

 

[dowie]

^^^ this

and a lot of the people who don't get very good degrees will be doing jobs they could have done at 18 only now they've cost the tax payer several thousand in tuition and loans. Instead they could have been working and therefore contributing tax and wouldn't be in so much debt thus would have more free cash to spend (therefore also helping the economy).....

 

[Indy500]

^^^ this

and a lot of the people who don't get very good degrees will be doing jobs they could have done at 18 only now they've cost the tax payer several thousand in tuition and loans. Instead they could have been working and therefore contributing tax and wouldn't be in so much debt thus would have more free cash to spend (therefore also helping the economy).....

Employers ask for degrees for administration roles now. We can't win either way. There's only so much of the economy that can rely on retail before that collapses as well.