Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi

That's a fair cop, but I'm sure I have read (several times) that, generally, the faith schools achieving higher academic standards are those that have their own admissions policies, and don't offer equality of access. That plus the automatic segregation that is part of, by definition, attending a 'faith school' makes me question claims that they are superior centres of education.

Some do have strict admission policies, especially the oversubscribed ones, but they are largely based on religion, not ability....however this again this goes to the States responsibilty for equality of access to good education....

I am a supporter of selective schooling anyway....in fact a return to a Grammar School system would probably see a fall in Faith School attendence or competition for places in such schools.

My son went to the catholic school because it was the best school in the area to get the best education given his specific needs.....for the attainment he can expect from the position he was in it has better results than the local Grammar School (which is the best school overall in the country)...the programs that are partially funded by the diocese on dyslexia have helped my Son improve ten-fold in the 18 months he has attended.

Two assemblies and 3 hours of RE a week is a small price to pay in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
To answer spuds question why is science and religion not compatible, for context I made the point that the religions (all of them) are not compatible with science but having a basic concept of god or appreciating spirituality is compatible.

The organised belief systems try to make the case of the creation of the universe and claim to have proof of god and offer insights from this god that include amongst other things, how to live life in a correct way and what happens when you die. These are all unscientific and not compatible with rationality and reasoning. You can't on the one hand believe that the planet was created in 7 days by god and then on the other teach biology, there would exist a logical conflict. But you will find people who are scientists that do believe in religions but it remains to be seen how much they would have archived if it was not for their irrational religious beliefs. There is a word for it is called Cognitive dissonance, when challenged on this the scientist will either claim to not take the religious believes seriously or get agitated with the challenge.

However just believing in a god of some kind or believing in spiritualness does not make any claim. Therefore it does not conflict with scientific understanding or rationality.
 
So would you remove a child from a religious family because they teach their child that religion?

Of course not. That would be silly. The state can't control what someone does in their private life. However, when the state is looking after the child such as when they are at school, a secular state has a duty not to indoctrinate one way or the other - a religion-free education is the only answer.

The local catholic school teaches a wide range of philosophical and religious positions in RE, he certainly isn't indoctrinated in any meaningful way. He spend vastly more time and effort learning Math, Science, English, Languages, and just about everything else....the religious part of the curriculum is just a tiny part...he has more PE lessons than RE ones.

What's the point of a faith school then if there's no religion? What's the incentive for the church to found a Catholic school if there's no difference?
 
Thr burqa is not oppressive in itself....if the woman has mad a conscious choice to wear it then it would be oppressive to stop her....so the emphasis should be on the choice of the individual, the illegality should be placed on the enforcement on wearing it, not the choice of wearing it.
No it's not, but with the social consequences that come with not wearing a burqa by the male family members of the women in question the simple "choice" isn't so simple.

If Islam had no penalty for apostasy or women from Islamic family's dressing as they please I would be more understanding on the issue.

The burqa isn't even required by religion - it's a pretty obvious method of shutting of women from wider society to exert control in a patriarchal society.

Just because some women think this is OK, it does not make it so - people who aid in there own oppression are the most fundamentally enslaved.

Why only female genital mutilation?....why not circumcision? Not that I agree with either, and nor do I think banning a piece of clothing is comparable to physical mutilation.
I actually disagree with both, I use female gential mutilation as an example as most people have been de-sensitised to circumcision & don't see it for what it is - cutting part off a small child without there consent.

Female genital mutilation is also renown for removing the ability for the women to feel pleasure, to make the act of love-making a purely child making affair for women - as a further method of control.

That is a largely different debate, and one that would need to address a wide range of examples...one being the motivation of the individual, while it is true that some people will do charitible or endeavour to force change regardless of their beliefs, there are a significant number who would not if not for the requirements inherent in their beliefs.
Agreed, a totally different debate.

My son attends a Catholic School....I'm not Catholic, my son doesn't believe in God, indoctrination in School is vastly over-rated. If it wasn't then we would all still be pious and religious. There is a lot of misconception of what modern faith schools actually teach.
Indoctrination is obviously going to be more powerful if the child is also being taught it at home, it's also worth noting that we have many many different levels of faith school in the UK - with COE & Catholic schools being the least detrimental.

Look up some of the videos of the new round of evangelical Christian schools, or Islamic schools - you will see first hand how different they are to our quite tame faith schools.

in France, due to the symbolic fees and the way in which they are funded anyone has access to a Faith School, not only those in a specific socio-economic group.
Well, proximity will play a factor & postcode is one of the key indicators of socio-economic class - but I agree, it can be mitigated against.

On a slightly different topic, I think Selective Schools (as in grammar schools) are a good idea. It is simply the responsibilty of the State to provide equal provision to all.
Personally I'd prefer schools to all be improved to cater for gifted children, as splitting kids (as per the recent research) tends to exaggerate differences in intellect - minor differences at the age of 10 can become quite significant by 16 (based off our current system of grouping by intellect)

If the funding followed the Child rather than the School, Parents would have better choice and Schools would be forced to compete and improve or close.
I'd agree with that system totally, that way parents don't feel forced into sending a child to a school due to it's increased funding.
 
I'd agree with that system totally, that way parents don't feel forced into sending a child to a school due to it's increased funding.

It would also allow the state to run purely secular Schools, and Faith Schools would be free to be independent.

That is the current process being considered by the Catholic School my son attends...using the new Free School system.

I would like to see the child being funded whatever school they attended whether it was state, independent or public.
 
I would like to see the child being funded whatever school they attended whether it was state, independent or public.
Would you really be happy for your tax pounds to be spent on a child attending any school, though? For example, would you be happy for a child going to an A.C.E. school to receive money from the state?
 
Would you really be happy for your tax pounds to be spent on a child attending any school, though? For example, would you be happy for a child going to an A.C.E. school to receive money from the state?

I don't believe that their are any ACE schools currently in the UK and state funding legislation would maintain a level core curriculum that would largely negate that anyway.

Parents who are insistent on giving that kind of education to their children will do so regardless of whether they receive state funding or not, for example the Exclusive Brethren run their own schools that do not have to comply to the National Curriculum but do have to comply to basic standards of education. OFSTED found that all 38 private schools offered a broad and good level of education despite their religious affectations.

There is already legislation that requires a Private school to provide a good standard of provision for pupils' social and cultural development and teaching standards. It would simply be a matter of extending that criteria for registration.

http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=2122723
 
OT-ish but I've just seen the sticky about being not being disrespectful towards religious views, which is fair enough, and this thread seemed like a good place to raise this point!

Why are people generally against challenging other people's religious beliefs? Yes, it's a major part of their view of the world and life but you could say the same thing about someone who denies the holocaust ever happened. They may well have been taught to believe that from a very young age and it may have influenced major decisions in their life, but I reckon if they shared that view on here, some of us would suggest a bit of a rethink. I doubt people would be too respectful either.
 
Mousetrap - you can remove the base & attach the pieces to the floor, keeping part of the function but losing one attribute - mobility.
Lol. The household mousetrap is made up of five parts, the platform - hammer - spring - catch - and locking pin. If you remove one of those parts the system does not work. How did complex biochemical systems evolve?.

The eye, the lens of the eye - is similar to the lens in the pinhole style eye in the nautilus - a less complex version - some fish have basic eyes using part of our system using the flagellum.
An eye that works is an eye that works, it is as simple as that. Which chemical arose first in the human eye? how did that chemical survive before it became a part of the complete complex biochemical system such as the human eye?
I've demolished every single thing you have said & if you want to discuss it further make a new thread.
Not really mate :D
 
Last edited:
Does anyone else remember when the labour government in 2005 tried to make it illegal to criticise religion? I hope that is never proposed again, what a stupid idea. Especially when anyone can change religion unlike race,gender or sexuality.
Agreed yeah, everything should be open to criticism.
 
This is why we should not allow muslims to be within government because they will try and infect the rest of the country with their crazy ideas about religion. Last thing we need is more religion.

Wasn't it actually Cameron who stated that UK is a christian country and shouldn't be afraid to express it as such.

But I do find it strange that a muslim woman preaching about christianity and she will be soon visiting pope. Hmm

I actually think that it wasn't her idea of all this talk of religion (christianity) in this country but rather someone else's in her party. Her being a party co-chairwoman probably has no choice but to express 'such view'.
 
Why Prof Dawkins has it wrong


No sooner does Baroness Warsi denounce militant secularists who try to marginalise Christianity than, bang on cue, up surfaces Richard Dawkins with a survey commissioned by his Foundation for Reason and Science intended to demonstrate that Christianity is a minority pursuit.

His Ipsos MORI poll, published today, is intended to unpick that bit of the 2001 census which found that more than 70 per cent of respondents identify themselves as Christian. So — selecting from 2,107 respondents questioned the 1,136 who either said they were Christian in the census or would have done so — his poll finds that 72 per cent of them did so because they were baptised into the religion; 38 per cent of them because they are children of Christian parents; and 37 per cent because they went to Sunday school (the poll allows for more than one answer). By comparison, 28 per cent say baldly that they believe in the teachings of ‘this religion’ — as the poll refers to Christianity.

Asked to identify the single main reason they thought of themselves as Christian, 46 per cent identified baptism; 18 per cent said they believed in the teachings. (Actually that’s a bit of a dud question: baptism and active faith are quite different elements of Christian identity.) Another question established that just under 30 per cent attend church at least once a month, which rises to 40 per cent for attendance twice a year or more.

And when it comes to the conclusions to which the poll inexorably leads: 43 per cent strongly, and 35 per cent less strongly, think religious should be a private matter in which governments should not interfere. 38 per cent strongly, and 36 per cent less strongly, believe that religion should be a private matter and should not have special influence on public policy. See!

You can work out where this is leading, can’t you? The removal of bishops from the Lords, the withdrawal of public funding from church schools and — ahem — doing away with prayer before public assemblies.

Now, I would be the first to admit that this poll is a downer for anyone who cares about the future of Christianity; had it been broken down in terms of age, it would have made me even more depressed. But I honestly don’t think that the conclusions are those that Prof Dawkins seeks to draw from it. Were I asked whether religion should have a special influence on public policy, I’m not sure I’d agree. I am, for instance, anti-abortion, but that’s because I believe in the humanity of the foetus (and the late C. Hitchins tended to agree) rather than because I believe in Catholicism. I’m against euthanasia because it puts an intolerable burden on the vulnerable elderly, not because the Pope says so. Quite a few religious people operate on the basis of Reason, as Prof Dawkins would have it, not least because it is a God-given faculty.

But it’s another matter to relegate religion to the private sphere, which is what Baroness Warsi is suggesting that secularists want to do and which Prof Dawkins professedly does want to do. It is impossible to isolate those parts of your identity which belong to the religious and the rational sphere, simply because human beings aren’t formed like that.

I happen to like attending the Holy Week processions in Spain where everyone pitches in behind the statues of the suffering Christ, whether or not they are believers, because it’s an expression of communal identity as well as Christian faith. The moral sensibility that makes me naturally inclined to favour the Big Society is formed from being part of a much bigger Big Society, which is the communion of the living and the dead in the church. Regarding religious belief as something that can be detached from either a person or community is to mistake its character; it’s a way of looking at the world, a way of being part of a larger whole, not a matter of believing in the articles of the creed the same way that Prof Dawkins believes in the periodic table. (Though, as it happens, I do believe every article of the Creed.)

Baroness Warsi is correct about one thing, which is that this attempt to privatise religion is an attempt to diminish its standing, its place in society, to make it a matter for consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes, not for the rough and tumble of politics. But all this poll has done is to establish that when people are asked why they believe, their reasons are muddled and inchoate. For instance, another question in the poll finds that for most respondents, Christianity means trying to be a good person — which seems pretty sound to me. Christians are, patently, less clear in their beliefs than they were a generation ago, and according to all the evidence, much less thoroughgoing in their religious identity than Muslims, but that is not to discredit their religion altogether. And it makes the CofE, in all its heroic inclusivity, seem like rather a good means of expressing that identity.

Incidentally, I don't know what Prof Dawkins was trying to prove by asking whether respondents regarded themselves as ‘a religious person’ (45 per cent agreed) but I can't think of many of my fellow churchgoers who would feel comfortable saying that they were — it's tantamount to identifying yourself as a good person, which would be anathema to most Catholics.

But let’s not forget the other outstanding finding from the poll. Only a third of all respondents — 33 per cent — say they have no religion. The Pope may not have many divisions these days but Prof Dawkins, it seems, has even fewer.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/7650038/why-prof-dawkins-has-it-wrong.thtml


Some interesting points raised in the article, not least of which deals with communal identity and how people relate to it.

Still it should give you some points to discuss from a slightly different perspective. :)
 
Back
Top Bottom